D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Hold Person Super-Nerf

[isoChron]

Ah, and don't forget: the caster of hold person is not alone (most of the time).
Cleric - Hold Person on front line fighter
Rogue - Moving and CdG with Death Blow Feat
Front Line Fighter - Dead (most of the time)
I think Hold Person still has it's place in a spell list. Especially as a 2. level spell.
BYE

 

[Celtavian]

re

(shakes head) People are really fixated on this. I'm not sure it's a major change in the CdG department, actually. This spell is used at range, and the held foe is often not right next to an enemy. As CdG is a full round action, youu can't do it the same round the enemy is held, as you have to move up to him.

Besides, if you're casting Hold person, you're probably casting it on the fighter type opponent in front with low Will saves. Then you charge past him and whack the BBEG who was hiding behind him.

What else is it good for? I wouldn't just cast the spell and hope it sticks. I would use in a coordinated manner.

That means waiting for the fighter on my team to enter battle, then casting it when the he would be able to CDG his opponent.

Before, I would cast it and often forget about the target until I had dealt with the BBEG. It might also be needed to for other purposes as I previously stated.

 

[Larcen]

He's talking about 1E and 2E.

But I agree, the change to Hold Person (like so many of the 3.5 changes) made matters worse, not better. The spell is now MORE dangerous to PCs, because enemies will CDG them as quickly as possible once they're held for fear they'll break free, whereas before, they could ignore a held PC and focus on the rest of the party. And it's less useful in the hands of PCs because even a creature with a poor Will save will probably break free in 2-3 rounds at most, unless a PC takes an entire round to CDG them - which is a luxury you don't always have, especially if you're in a really hairy battle.

I don't understand, if it's so difficult for the PCs to CDG in the middle of battle, how are the enemies doing it?

 

[Larcen]

Hold person is hardly a save-or-die spell.
Remove paralysis, dispel magic, freedom of movement...
All good counters to have around, especially if you got
'em in a magic item.
...

Not to split hairs, but I think you meant to say: "All good counters to have around, especially if YOUR TEAMMATES got 'em in a magic item."

Seriously, my cleric has used Hold Person to CDG two major enemies so far, and both times he felt really guilty about the ease of doing it for some reason. I think Hold Person should have been changed to a non-paralysing type of hold, with only one save. The victim can still defend himself, but can take not actions or move out of this current square. Think of Obi Wan impatiently watching the Qui Gon/Maul action behind that forcefield. He wanted so badly to participate, but couldn't. But instead of a forcefield, Hold Person would be a type of mind control (enchantment).

(Sorry, I am bored today and rambling.)

P.S. Wait until my cleric gets that spell storing sword he's been wanting. Can you guess the spell he will be storing in it most of the time?

EDIT: I just realized, what I described above is the same as the new Command spell used with the Halt option. Oh well. At the least the Hold Person would Halt someone for a longer period of time.

 

[Camarath]

I think Hold Person should have been changed to a non-paralysing type of hold, with only one save. The victim can still defend himself, but can take not actions or move out of this current square. Think of Obi Wan impatiently watching the Qui Gon/Maul action behind that forcefield. He wanted so badly to participate, but couldn't. But instead of a forcefield, Hold Person would be a type of mind control (enchantment).

You could also (as a house rule) replace Hold person with this Psionic Power. Which I think does exactly what you are suggesting.

Brain Lock
Telepathy (Cha) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion 2
Display: Vi, Ma
Manifestation Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3
The subject stands mentally paralyzed, unable to take any actions. The brain locked subject is not stunned (so attackers get no special advantage). He or she can defend against physical attacks (Dexterity bonus to AC still applies), but otherwise can’t move, and can’t use psionic powers.
A brain locked flyer cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

 

[Larcen]

You could also (as a house rule) replace Hold person with this Psionic Power. Which I think does exactly what you are suggesting.

Yes, that is exactly what I had in mind. We don't use psionics and I wasn't aware of that power. I think a version of Hold Person that does this would not be broken and not easiliy abused.

 

[Simplicity]

Not to split hairs, but I think you meant to say: "All good counters to have around, especially if YOUR TEAMMATES got 'em in a magic item."

Well, a ring of freedom of movement works fine...

If they wanted to make Hold Person a better spell, they could have given
a second save after a couple of rounds. But one save EVERY round makes
the spell useless. It really is only good for a coordinated Coup de Grace.
You'd be foolish to rush past the frontline fighter when you know he's coming back to life next round or the round after.

 

[youspoonybard]

But it's a second level spell.

I'd say that a second level spell could effectively take a person of any hit dice out for a little while. That seems about right.

If CdG's are what really concern you, ask your DM if you could make Held creatures not CdG'able.

I'd still use it (well, if I played a Cleric, which I don't) to get around fighters and slaughter back-liners, while the casters in my party are nuking the Held fighters.

 

[Staffan]

Back in 2E, it affected 1d4 targets, or something like that. Horribly broken, but then, what wasn't?

As I understand it, the "1d4" thing was a result of a mistranslation from 1e. Back then, everything was expressed as ranges instead of dice, so a longsword would do "1-8" damage instead of 1d8, a magic missile spell would do "2-5" points instead of 1d4+1 per missile, and so on. Hold Person affected 1-4 targets, but that was supposed to be up to the caster - that's why the saves got harder if you focused on one or two targets.

When they made 2e, they just converted all the ranges over to dice. So the longsword did 1d8, the magic missile did 1d4+1 and hold person affected 1d4 targets.

 

[Grog]

I don't understand, if it's so difficult for the PCs to CDG in the middle of battle, how are the enemies doing it?

It may not always be difficult. But here's the point. If the PCs CDG an enemy, big deal, the DM has plenty more where that one came from. But if the enemies CDG a PC, that's a much bigger deal. Which is why the change to Hold Person was a bad one. You now have to CDG an enemy as quickly as possible because even someone with a bad Will save probably won't stay held for more than 2-3 rounds at most. So the lethality of the spell has been greatly increased.