D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[Gargauth]

For me the problem lies in a combination of three issues:

1) I have more money than I did during 1st and 2nd and can afford all of the modules I want.

2) That money is bought with time, and I don't have as much of that as I did during 1st and 2nd editions

3) 3E and 3.5 modules take a hell of a lot longer to play than 1st and 2nd editions did.

Seriously, the reason I thought it had only been 3 years since 3.5 came out is because it seems like yesterday. Our group only meets every other week and it takes forever to run something like Shackled City or the new FR trilogy. I know this isn't WotC's problem; it's mine. So if 4E can solve problem 3 above, my life will probably be better, but I will be much more selective... MUCH more selective... about what support materials I buy from them for 4th and I have a feeling I won't be alone. The poster who said he buys about 3 books a year is right... for the last few years. But when 3E came out, I was buying stuff right and left for a couple of years. I for one won't be making that mistake again and if a significant number of gamers feel the same way, 4E isn't going to be nearly as profitable as 3E was for them... much more profitable than the last two years? Surely, but I doubt that is their goal.

 

[Sunderstone]

About the time frame....
8 months away is not alot of notice after several years of buying a ton of hardcovers. At least now, I probably wont buy any more hardcovers at least until the next edition to cut my losses.

About the new edition digital value....
To me D&D has always been pen, paper, dice, and loads of imagination.
The Digital portion of 4E while nice for some, isnt too great for me. I am a hardcore video gamer already, I play World of Warcraft on a high end PC (that I built as well), my firends are also similar video gamers, etc. In our case, we dont need D&D crossing into a video-game like atmosphere.
Even though it may be optional, it seems like there will be more enhancements to the paying subscriber, than to us paper-gamers.
Will there be be some Free web enhancements beyond errata? Who knows. I doubt there will be nearly as much as so many of the pro 4E folks have said "WotC is a business that is out to make money".
Umm..... duh, but dont you pro-4E folks care about how much money have to spend? After all you arent WotC employees getting paid to design games. You are consumer/gamers. Why should you care so much that WotC needs to make money.

About some of the new edition's game feel (at least class/race-wise at this time)....
Its too early to tell and I might pick up a 4E PH just out of curiousity, but it seems to also be moving even further away from the classic feel and adding more to the splatbook masses (for example the Warlord).
We still dont know exactly how many new core classes are being added, or which classes might be dropped/altered, and to what extent (the Ranger and Scout rolled into one sounds cool). It just seems like they are catering to the newer, cooler, hip video-game crowd with built in splatbook classes. I say leave the iconic classes and make them more interesting like what they are proposing for the Ranger. Renaming a classic Wizard to a more "warcrafty" name of Mage or possibly folding the Druid into Cleric doesnt appeal to me.
I imagine my new splatbook 4 PC party would consist of Mage, Warlord, Cleric, and whatever flavor of the month name is Thief/Rogue (both of which I like though). I prefer a more iconic sounding Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue.
As for race rumors like possibly dropping the Gnome.... I dont play gnomes but I really hope this doesnt come to pass.

Bottom line, WotC is catering to the newer crowd trying to reach out to new players. Seems like an ok business model to adopt to make money. I just dont think that Dungeons and Dragons is the right name to call their new RPG.

Yes, 4E is optional. I dont have to buy it, etc.
Comment- I agree and I have a ton of stuff still to play to last me a few years.

Yes, eventually D&D will have to evolve.
Comment - I agree here, but should 4E be called D&D or something more suitable like Mages and Monsters?

Yes, I can probably convert all your 3E/3.5E books to 4E.
Comment- I agree but do I want to do all that work especially since they seem to be changing alot of things? Not really.

Yes, my books arent obsolete.... yet.
I agree to an extent. I will still be using them for awhile. At least now I wont have to spend any more money on 3.5 edition products. Saves me alot of cash in the next 8 months at the very least. Woot!
I will likely buy 3.5 adventures/modules though, might as well stock up and hit my bunker.

 

[ShadowDenizen]

even if WoTC wanted to make modules it would have a hard time making them fit everyone's game.

But Paizo was doing just that, with Dungeon Magazine.
Unless I'm misremembering, they had a "Core-Only" policy, and people loved it! (And any "Add-ons" from "Complete XXX" or whatever simply needed a few words of explanation.)

SO, it IS do-able. (THough not to WotC's advantage, granted.)

 

[teitan]

There is a big difference between "not letting information out" and telling a deliberate falsehood. The first can be good business practice, the second can get you in legal trouble when done at the wrong time (especially when you are part of a publicly traded company). Most importantly, it can damage your relationship with your customers.

The problem here is that they were screwed hardcore either way. If they gave a cryptic answer then it would have fueled speculation when speculation was already at an all time high and if they told the truth they broke their NDA.

 

[teitan]

After reading the announcements it seems very clear that with 4E and the DI so intimately intertwined with one another that unless you can afford to pay the monthly subscriptionsd and the 1 shot article purchases, that you will only have part of a complete system.

To be able to play D&D 4E, you will require not only the books, but a computer and a paid monthly subscription as well. This is their "vision" for a table top RPG? Sounds like a business model for an MMORPG to me. Oh right ... it is.

I think the reliance on the DI is being overly exaggerated...

 

[Shadeydm]

Bottom line, WotC is catering to the newer crowd trying to reach out to new players. Seems like an ok business model to adopt to make money. I just dont think that Dungeons and Dragons is the right name to call their new RPG.

Yes, 4E is optional. I dont have to buy it, etc.
Comment- I agree and I have a ton of stuff still to play to last me a few years.

Yes, eventually D&D will have to evolve.
Comment - I agree here, but should 4E be called D&D or something more suitable like Mages and Monsters?

Yes, I can probably convert all your 3E/3.5E books to 4E.
Comment- I agree but do I want to do all that work especially since they seem to be changing alot of things? Not really.

Yes, my books arent obsolete.... yet.
I agree to an extent. I will still be using them for awhile. At least now I wont have to spend any more money on 3.5 edition products. Saves me alot of cash in the next 8 months at the very least. Woot!
I will likely buy 3.5 adventures/modules though, might as well stock up and hit my bunker.

Yes, by lying they did get me to purchase 4 or 5 books which otherwise I might not have. Congrats WotC I hope it was worth it.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

double post

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I'm editing this because I have just read your last post which wasn't present while I was posting what I have written above. While you obviously don't agree with me (and I think you make some good points by the way) I find your tone insulting and I don't enjoy my ideas, which I spent a long time thinking about, phrasing, and then typing up being followed by dismissive phrases such as "please"... lets just disagree and move on.

I apologize for the tone. Reading an endless parade of posts about how evil every past edition was and why, and how evil 4E is going to be and why, and I let it get to me. I'm lucky I didn't actually post the rant I included in my first response. I am not looking forward to the next 9 months if various boards are going to be like they have in the last few days. It was not my intent to be insulting, but I definitely disagree that 3.5 "is the REAL reason everyone is angry". There was anger before, during and now after 3.5. It isn't 3.5 that is a specific cause just because you happen to have heightened issues about 3.5, valid though they may be. There has always been, and always will be, a highly vocal percentage of gamers who will choose to be offended by change. I say "choose" because change is inevitable. 4E won't last forever unchanged either so after people are through __ about the onset of 4E because it's a fait accompli they'll start to do the same about the NEXT version, and continue to do so about not having stopped at a given PAST version.

My understanding is that 3.5 was always intended regardless of the fact that it was enacted earlier than originally planned. The only reason they're saying there will be no 4.5 is because those INEVITABLE updates and minor revisions will be done continuously online via D&D Insider where ALL such will be considered "official" rules [this according to this mornings ENworld news]. Rather than fret another moment about what past sins may have been committed, since NOTHING about the inevitability of change is going to change we'd all do better to focus on how we intend to deal with that change more sensibly from this point forward.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I think the reliance on the DI is being overly exaggerated...

In a sense. Unless I'm really misreading DI is NOT going to be necessary to play the game in any way. It will be helpful in having online tools to make things easier. It will also, apparantly, be the source of the bulk of future splat material - all of which will be official. If I read things correctly. That means that if you're foolishly obsessed with having ALL possible rules and options, of course you won't be able to do so without subscribing to DI.

 

[Maggan]

That means that if you're foolishly obsessed with having ALL possible rules and options, of course you won't be able to do so without subscribing to DI.

Funnily enough, the DI will make it a lot cheaper for me to stay current. Now I won't buy all the books released, clocking in at 60 dollars a month or so. I'll just plunk down the cash for the core, and then 10 dollars a month to stay current.

I win. WotC wins. Sounds good to me.

/M