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D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

RFisher

Explorer
thulsadoomson said:
I've seen in some posts that people claim 4e will make 3.5 obsolete. I just don't get this.

Understand that--for people who say this--regularly getting new material that is explicitly designed for the game they are playing is important. Or they have the experience that trying to find gamers for an out-of-print game is nigh impossible. (Totally counter to my experience, but I have to believe them.) Or both.

Can you get it then?
 

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anyGould

First Post
Visceris said:
The latest version of Dungeons and Dragons is only 4 years old. I can understand if it was 10 years, or even 8,m but only freaking 4 years. When I invest in a game system I want staying power. I want the core rules system to last and last a good dame while. Hell, most of my campaigns that I run last longer than 4 years.

I don't have the funds to spend ona new version every few short years of a game. If I am going to invest time and money in a RPG system I want staying power. 4 freaking years! How long with 4th edition last, WotC? 2 years? 3?

Well, think of it this way: how much were you planning on spending on D&D in 2008?

Were you planning on buying three books? Then buy the Core 4E books, and you won't have given them any more money than you were going to anyway.

I had the same gut-reaction when I heard about 4E (particularly since I was planning to go out and buy MM5 that *very day*.) But after a day to think about it, I was going to spend money on D&D anyway. It just won't be the stuff I was expecting to buy.

(And realisticly - we've done sourcebooks for every race plus some. For every class plus a whole mess of. What else *were* they going to publish for 3.5?)
 

KingCrab

First Post
anyGould said:
(And realisticly - we've done sourcebooks for every race plus some. For every class plus a whole mess of. What else *were* they going to publish for 3.5?)

I was hoping, lots of really good modules. I would have paid well for 'em. Give us a chance to enjoy some of the stuff we've bought and the rules we enjoy.
 

Daosus

Explorer
stuff

I think that people are upset about 4E because they do not want to switch over. To everyone who's saying that you don't have to buy the new books, that's quite true -- unless you want to find players outside your immediate circle. In buying 4E you are essentially paying money to stay "current." This is OK to some people, and not OK to others.

Now then, the business aspect of it. Wizards is a company which must make money. By announcing 4E relatively late and with little warning they sold somoe more 3.5 books. The people that bought those books now feel gypped. Me, I never converted to 3.5. This is because I do not feel that Wizards provides me with enough information to plan my purchases. In short, I don't trust them. They have done nothing wrong or illegal, but by choosing to release 3.5 so early, they have lost me as a customer.

Now, 4E could change all that. Maybe they will release 5E a good long time after 4E, after it's had time to mature. But, I won't be buying 4E right off the bat, because I"m already expecting 4.5. And, I think, many of the people here are too.
 

pemerton

Legend
I understand some of the rancour on this thread - anyone not playing the current edition will have trouble finding new members for a D&D gaming group.

But I don't think WoTC has any other choice. If they want to remain viable, they must make the best possible return on the capital invested in them (otherwise Hasbro will liquidate that capital and invest it elsewhere). This means producing books that will sell. The Complete Book of 3.5 Flumphs doesn't fit that description. I find it very easy to believe that 4E does.

I also think that some people are underestimating the problems facing 3E. As a long-time RM player, I know what it means to play a game whose rules are full of options. The main thing is that it means no module or campaign setting that you buy has monsters and NPCs statted in a way that exactly fits the way you play the game.

D&D 3E/3.5 has exactly the same problem. So many people are playing with so many variant rulesets (between core only, one or more Complete books, Unearthed Arcana etc) that even if WoTC wanted to make modules it would have a hard time making them fit everyone's game.

Besides the proliferation of options, 3.5 also suffers from clunky design. John Cooper's unofficial errata in his reviews on this website are proof enough of that: if the core designers and developers for the system have trouble generating rules-legal stat blocks, something has gone seriously wrong. For my money, the glaring flaws with 3.5 are:

*Excessive complexity in generating creature and character stats (too many sources of bonuses, too many skill points, etc);

*Some overly complex resolution systems (grapple, aspects of AoO, rules for non-lethal damage, unarmed attacks, overlapping mechanics of spell resistance and saving throws, contrast between full-action spells and one round spells, to name a handful);

*A degree of incoherence in the relationship between the metagame and in-game aspects of rewards: treasure is both a reward for players (as it improves their PCs) and also has a clearly defined in-game significance, but XP are far more ambiguous - at times the suggestion is that XP, levels etc are purely metagame concepts (and this is also suggested by the fact that they are earned in a way that can only be given a metagame justification, namely, by adventuring) but the spell component and magic item rules treat them as an in-game character resource also;

*Coherence problems also in the ways characters/creatures are modelled - hit points, BAB etc suggest a focus on high fantasy, but skill definitions and rules for skill use are much closer to RM or RQ-style simulation of gritty fantasy;

*Related to the above, a lack of rules to facilitate fairly common tropes of high fantasy, such as pursuits, acts of derring-do, and characters pushing the limits of their power (either physically or magically) and exhausting themselves as a result - in part this is a consequence of the absence of metagame mechanics for giving players a degree of narrative control over the outcome of PC actions;

*The use of Raise Dead (which has in-game as well as metagame significance, and is subject to sometime arbitrary GM interference) rather than Fate Points (a purely metagame device) to give players narrative control over the fate of their PCs;

*An inability to decide whether alignment is purely descriptive (as the PHB suggests) or also prescriptive (which is implied by the assumption in most modules and campaign worlds that PCs are Good), and a related inability to coherently explain the internal psychology of "ordinary" Evil people (as opposed to serial killers and other psychopaths).​

From the early announcements it seems like 4E will try to resolve at least some of these shortcomings. That has the potential to make D&D a considerably better game, and seems to me to justify a new edition independently of any financial considerations that may have motivated WoTC.
 

pemerton

Legend
Brian Compton said:
Sure you could convert the story, but depending on how much crunchy material is involved in the plot, what would the point be? You could spend as much time writing your own adventure and that would be free.

<snip>

When someone buys an adventure to run, it's with one of two goals (or both) in mind:

1)Involving players in an iconic experience, such as plumbing the depths of Castle Greyhawk or affecting the direction of an entire world; or

2)Saving time by having the number-crunching, plot-planning, and other details already taken care of, so that adjustments would be minor and likely not involving numeric or rules-centric issues.

The vast majority of pre-fab adventures are written with goal 2 in mind. Having to convert to a new system, unless it's a matter of simple substitution, would negate the purpose and thus lead to less sales.

I don't know how often you run modules using system X that were written for system Y. I do it all the time - my group plays its own version of RM, which like any other group's version of RM is unique in its particular suite of options and resolutions of rules inconsistencies, and thus even when we play an RM module I have to convert (often on the fly) to our own house system. But most of the time I use D&D/D20 stuff, because it is readily available, whereas no new RM modules have been published by ICE for about 10 years or so.

The reason I buy and run modules is not for the "crunch" - I can pull creatures and NPCs out of the RM books myself, just as I could pull them out of the MM and DMG. I use them for the plot. As other posters have said, the stats really are secondary. Very few modules have plots which turn on particular mechanical features of the rules - and this is particularly true of D&D modules, which generally appeal to strange magical effects that have no explanation within the framework of the D&D rules.

When our current campaign finishes, I am hoping to start a HARP campaign that will be set in Greyhawk, and use my collection of first-rate Penumbra and Fiery Dragon modules. I don't see any reason why these modules couldn't be used for a 4E game either. The Penumbra ones in particular seem to me to be chock-full of really clever plots and situations that I would never come up with myself - even if I had the time I don't have the creativity.

One of the stated design goals for 4E seem to be to make the GM's job easier, in terms of adventure preparation. If those goals are achieved, that will make it even easier than it otherwise would be to run modules designed for other systems (such as 3E) in a 4E game.
 
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Shadeydm said:
Well, its pretty clear the folks over at WotC/Hasbro think so. Personally I am not so sure.
The question is, why would it be a revival like that?

Why was 3e such a revival?

So many people had drifted away from D&D over the years, AD&D 2e was showing it's age big time, there was so much "legacy code" of old out-of-print supplements that not many people had that new books were still referencing (like Battlesystem). AD&D 2e was playable, but it was clear that to remain commercially viable a new edition needed to be made to give the game a fresh start and a reboot. D&D's roots as a 1970's wargame were pretty clear when stacked up against other RPG's on the market in the late 1990's, and that made it pretty hard to compete.

White Wolf had taken the gaming world by storm with the WoD and TSR had cheesed off so many D&D players with their bad attitude (not to mention the oft cited market fractioning of myriad settings) that D&D was in bad shape. A revival of some kind was really needed.

What about now? Where was the clamor for 4e beforehand? Was 3.5 clearly behind the times? Were new books coming out regularly referencing stuff that was long out of print and wasn't too popular to begin with? Where are the competing tabletop RPG's giving WotC a serious run for their money and cutting deep into profits? Where are the droves of people driven away from D&D who need a fresh start to bring them back?

I'm not seeing the sort of market conditions and history that lead up to the revival that 3e brought in the cards for 4e.
 

Shadeydm

First Post
pemerton said:
I understand some of the rancour on this thread - anyone not playing the current edition will have trouble finding new members for a D&D gaming group.

But I don't think WoTC has any other choice. If they want to remain viable, they must make the best possible return on the capital invested in them (otherwise Hasbro will liquidate that capital and invest it elsewhere). This means producing books that will sell. The Complete Book of 3.5 Flumphs doesn't fit that description. I find it very easy to believe that 4E does.

I also think that some people are underestimating the problems facing 3E. As a long-time RM player, I know what it means to play a game whose rules are full of options. The main thing is that it means no module or campaign setting that you buy has monsters and NPCs statted in a way that exactly fits the way you play the game.

D&D 3E/3.5 has exactly the same problem. So many people are playing with so many variant rulesets (between core only, one or more Complete books, Unearthed Arcana etc) that even if WoTC wanted to make modules it would have a hard time making them fit everyone's game.

Besides the proliferation of options, 3.5 also suffers from clunky design. John Cooper's unofficial errata in his reviews on this website are proof enough of that: if the core designers and developers for the system have trouble generating rules-legal stat blocks, something has gone seriously wrong. For my money, the glaring flaws with 3.5 are:

*Excessive complexity in generating creature and character stats (too many sources of bonuses, too many skill points, etc);

*Some overly complex resolution systems (grapple, aspects of AoO, rules for non-lethal damage, unarmed attacks, overlapping mechanics of spell resistance and saving throws, contrast between full-action spells and one round spells, to name a handful);

*A degree of incoherence in the relationship between the metagame and in-game aspects of rewards: treasure is both a reward for players (as it improves their PCs) and also has a clearly defined in-game significance, but XP are far more ambiguous - at times the suggestion is that XP, levels etc are purely metagame concepts (and this is also suggested by the fact that they are earned in a way that can only be given a metagame justification, namely, by adventuring) but the spell component and magic item rules treat them as an in-game character resource also;

*Coherence problems also in the ways characters/creatures are modelled - hit points, BAB etc suggest a focus on high fantasy, but skill definitions and rules for skill use are much closer to RM or RQ-style simulation of gritty fantasy;

*Related to the above, a lack of rules to facilitate fairly common tropes of high fantasy, such as pursuits, acts of derring-do, and characters pushing the limits of their power (either physically or magically) and exhausting themselves as a result - in part this is a consequence of the absence of metagame mechanics for giving players a degree of narrative control over the outcome of PC actions;

*The use of Raise Dead (which has in-game as well as metagame significance, and is subject to sometime arbitrary GM interference) rather than Fate Points (a purely metagame device) to give players narrative control over the fate of their PCs;

*An inability to decide whether alignment is purely descriptive (as the PHB suggests) or also prescriptive (which is implied by the assumption in most modules and campaign worlds that PCs are Good), and a related inability to coherently explain the internal psychology of "ordinary" Evil people (as opposed to serial killers and other psychopaths).​

From the early announcements it seems like 4E will try to resolve at least some of these shortcomings. That has the potential to make D&D a considerably better game, and seems to me to justify a new edition independently of any financial considerations that may have motivated WoTC.

All good points in an overall sense but do you really believe that in release +2 years, 4E won't be headed in the exact same direction in regards to it's proliferation of options, which will once again fracture its base of gamers, and which will ultimatly reach a breaking point which will trigger 4.5E or a similar ploy to reset and resell?
 

Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
pemerton said:
I understand some of the rancour on this thread - anyone not playing the current edition will have trouble finding new members for a D&D gaming group.

While I have come to realise that this must be a common situation for the majority of D&D players, given the frequence this problem crops up in these situations, I have never ever understood why it is like that.

It might be that the RPG scene here in Sweden is so much more diverse when it comes to the games that are big, that there never seems to be a dearth of players for any game. The GM/DM decides on which game to run, and will in 99% of the cases find people willing to play. The limiting factor is time and scheduling, not which game or edition is used.

So I'm perplexed about that situation, even though I don't doubt that it exists.

/M
 

pemerton

Legend
Maggan said:
While I have come to realise that this must be a common situation for the majority of D&D players, given the frequence this problem crops up in these situations, I have never ever understood why it is like that.

It might be that the RPG scene here in Sweden is so much more diverse when it comes to the games that are big, that there never seems to be a dearth of players for any game. The GM/DM decides on which game to run, and will in 99% of the cases find people willing to play. The limiting factor is time and scheduling, not which game or edition is used.

So I'm perplexed about that situation, even though I don't doubt that it exists.

/M

I have been playing with the same group for about 15 years now, so don't have this issue. But, as with you, the testimony of others tells me that it is so.
 

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