D&D 3E/3.5 3.5, Monsters, and Epic Levels

[Garnfellow]

OK, has anyone out there got the skinny on just when monsters are eligible for epic feats? Do monsters qualify for epic level rules when their total HD reaches 21, or when their ECL reaches 21?

My understanding is that the WotC sources have been ambiguous and/or contradictory on this topic. For example, the old 3.5 SRD "Epic Levels" file had the following, pretty clear statement:

MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS

These epic rules work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels.​

But I (think) I have read that this statement contradicts something in the 3.5 DMG.

And in the revised 3.5 SRD, the statement quoted above drops out altogether. I also think I read somewhere that in the Dragonomicon, dragons are eligible for epic feats based on their age category, not HD.

So, has an official clarification been offered? And could some kindly soul point me toward it?

 

[James McMurray]

Yeah, dragons do it based on age category (old is when they qualify IIRC).

Other monsters should probably use ECL, just to keep them on par with epic characters. Of course, on't try this in your ECL 14 campaign, or you'll end up with some nasty foes that your party can't hope to take.

 

[Olive]

SRD says:
Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

 

[Endur]

An Old Dragon is 400+ years old, and has between 24 to 29 hit dice. That tells me that if I want to give a monster epic feats, I'm probably not going to use level adjustment, just base the availability of epic feats on how many hit dice the monster has. i.e. if the Monster has 21+ hit dice, I might consider epic feats.

QUOTE=James McMurray]Yeah, dragons do it based on age category: old is when they qualify
[/QUOTE]

 

[reiella]

The old segment (Monsters as Epic Characters) is specifically in reference to Monsterous PCs... Read it as if you're using a monsterous pc (Say, a Drow), they can qualify for epic feats when they're a 19th level somethign or other (ECL 21), instead of having to wait for 21st level something or other (ECL 23).

Just a matter of poor phrasing .

 

[James McMurray]

But one of the big strides forward for 3rd edition was that the rules apply equally to both PCs and the rest of the world. I certainly wouldn't alter every ECL 21+ critter in every adventure, but a few every now and then when called for is a good thing.

 

[Pax]

This is more of the "difference of opinions" between Andy Collins, and the ELH-as-written. I consider the ELH to be the "primary source" for issues concernign epic characters, feats, monsters, and so on -- and it specifies that ECL is the sole benchmark of note for Epic status WRT the acquisition of feats.

 

[reiella]

But one of the big strides forward for 3rd edition was that the rules apply equally to both PCs and the rest of the world. I certainly wouldn't alter every ECL 21+ critter in every adventure, but a few every now and then when called for is a good thing.

And ECL was a big departure from that belief (Character Level ~= CR, CR != ECL).

For Monster PCs, they get '21st' sooner than Monsters that aren't PCs.

ECL isn't really a good point to consider, since ECL is defined rather than extrapolated, and becomes troublesome if you advance creatures by HitDice... Of course, consideration by HD isn't good either, unless you want to have a CR 6 monsters with epic feats, go ahead (Gargantuan Zombie). I'd be inclined to go with CR as for Monsters (that aren't PCs), it's the same effect as Character Level.

With that said, with how it's phrased in the ELH, it's either HitDice (or 'monster levels') or ECL (Depending on if they are a monster or a character).

[ Edit, clarification minor, added ]

 

[James McMurray]

We all know that CR != ECL. So what? A given critter can still have its ECL calculated if the DM decids to change its default feats and give it some Epic ones, and needs to know when it becomes eligible to start taking them.

unless you want to have a CR 6 monsters with epic feats, go ahead

Nope, wouldn't want that. In fact, I said as much in my next to last post.

I'm just more of an equal opportunity DM I guess. If I'm making an important encounter for an epic or near epic campaign, I'm going to look atthe creature's ECL instead of CR or hit dice. Why should a PC Bralani Eladrin Fighter 10 be able to pick up an epic feat, when a NPC Kython Fighter 11 can't? Especially considering that the Kython's hit dice and ECL (19 and 25) are both higher than the PC's (16 and 21)?