D&D (2024) Rules Clarification: Epic Boon at 19th Class Level or Total Character Level?

[DrJawaPhD]

If DnD Beyond allows the epic boon, it doesn't mean it's correct, but it does mean the programmers and whoever is directing them think multicasting still grants the boon.

DnD Beyond allows you to take 7 Epic Boon feats on a level 19 Fighter. Their 2024 character builder is still a work in progress to be overly generous.

 

[Hatmatter]

I might have missed something, but can you explain the logic for this? The one you receive at 19th level seems obvious, but I don't understand how you get the second epic boon feat using a single class. Are you referring to 'bonus feats at level 20' (p43)?

Hi John,

Ad Hoc explained it in posts #3 and 6 of this thread. It would work like this. A multiclass character of level 15 and level 3 (15/3) advances to level 4 in one class (15/4). Such a character now has a total character level of 19. Because the only prerequisite for the Epic Boon Feat is "Level 19+" and because at level 4 one can take any kind of feat for which one qualifies using the "Ability Score Improvement" Feature, that character can now acquire an Epic Boon Feat.

Then, when the character next advances, the character increases from 15 to 16 in the other class (16/4). At 16th level in the other class, the character also has an "Ability Score Improvement" Feature, with which the character may also acquire a different Epic Boon Feat because the prerequisite of "Level 19+" is met.

I hope that makes sense! We are talking about such a high-level character, I think it's a neat little possibility for some multiclassed characters. It would also work with an 8/8/4 character; nothing game breaking.

In fact, given the overall reduced combat ability of many multiclassed characters -- something with which Mort was concerned in this thread -- one could even argue that a second Epic Boon Feat is compensatory for a character who might otherwise be challenged to keep up with characters who are 20th-level in a single class.

 

[John Lloyd1]

Hi John,

Ad Hoc explained it in posts #3 and 6 of this thread. It would work like this. A multiclass character of level 15 and level 3 (15/3) advances to level 4 in one class (15/4). Such a character now has a total character level of 19. Because the only prerequisite for the Epic Boon Feat is "Level 19+" and because at level 4 one can take any kind of feat for which one qualifies using the "Ability Score Improvement" Feature, that character can now acquire an Epic Boon Feat.

Then, when the character next advances, the character increases from 15 to 16 in the other class (16/4). At 16th level in the other class, the character also has an "Ability Score Improvement" Feature, with which the character may also acquire a different Epic Boon Feat because the prerequisite of "Level 19+" is met.

I hope that makes sense! We are talking about such a high-level character, I think it's a neat little possibility for some multiclassed characters. It would also work with an 8/8/4 character; nothing game breaking.

In fact, given the overall reduced combat ability of many multiclassed characters -- something with which Mort was concerned in this thread -- one could even argue that a second Epic Boon Feat is compensatory for a character who might otherwise be challenged to keep up with characters who are 20th-level in a single class.

I had that. @Maxperson seemed to be saying you could get two epic feats without multclassing. That was the bit I couldn't see.

Good summary BTW.

 

[Maxperson]

I might have missed something, but can you explain the logic for this? The one you receive at 19th level seems obvious, but I don't understand how you get the second epic boon feat using a single class. Are you referring to 'bonus feats at level 20' (p43)?

Never mind.

 

[Maxperson]

I had that. @Maxperson seemed to be saying you could get two epic feats without multclassing. That was the bit I couldn't see.

Good summary BTW.

Brain fart. I thought for a minute that there was a 20th level feat like in the days of yore. My bad.

 

[abirdcall]

I know Ad Hoc will likely disagree (he or she is very upfront with his or her dislike of multiclassing), but the more I think about it, the more I really like the notion of the Epic Boon Feats being available to multiclassers, and even two Epic Boon Feats by 20th level for some multiclassers. Even though the Epic Boon Feats are not broken, it provides a kind of capstone for characters who otherwise would not get one. I have not seen commenters mention it, but it is a straight-up improvement from the 2014 rules.

She/her. Thanks for not assuming, in the future it is easier to just write 'they' if you don't know someone's gender.

I don't necessarily disagree. I think a strict reading of the rules doesn't allow it but it is entirely reasonable to read them as they infer it to be allowed.

Just my 2 thoughts:

1. Rules lawyers are fine with using inference if it means they get more power.
2. It showcases how awfully designed multiclassing is that 1 character will have 1 epic boon while another will have 2 depending on their order of levels. I'm assuming a similar thing still happens with the order of the first level as it did in 2014. I think I will look into that next just for my curiosity.

 

[ECMO3]

I hope that makes sense! We are talking about such a high-level character, I think it's a neat little possibility for some multiclassed characters. It would also work with an 8/8/4 character; nothing game breaking.

I play a lot of characters to high level and they are almost all multiclassed.

This is neat, and if you are creating a 19th or 20th level character it is simple to do it this way.

If you are playing a character to level 20 though it is a much more difficult proposition. For example the the 18th levle character you mention (15/3) was 15th level at some point. Was that 12/3 or 15/0? In either case I could have gotten a general feat at the very next level and had the benefits of said feat at level 16-18. By not taking the feat at 16th level I am getting a better feat at 19th level but losing out to having any new feat for 3 levels.

There is also the propensity to slip in another class just to delay getting a feat for a level.

For example I am currently playing a Ranger 4/Monk 1. Assuming she survives, at the end of the game she will be a Fey Wanderer Ranger 14/Monk 1/Glamour Bard 5 and at 18th level she will nominally advance in Ranger to be a Ranger 12/Monk 1/Bard 5 ..... well that has me thinking do I want to slip another class in there at 18th level (probably Sorcerer, Clerc or Druid) or take another Bard level just so I take Ranger 12 at 19th level and can get a boon feat instead of a General?

In fact, given the overall reduced combat ability of many multiclassed characters -- something with which Mort was concerned in this thread -- one could even argue that a second Epic Boon Feat is compensatory for a character who might otherwise be challenged to keep up with characters who are 20th-level in a single class.

I think Multiclassed characters generally have much better combat ability than single classed characters at most levels if building for combat is a consideration in the build.

My Ranger/Monk noted above is currently 5th level and from level 2-4 I was outdamaging everyone else in the group. I am keeping up ok now even without extra attack and will be outdamaging them again next level. At high levels I will have a lot of spell slots, bard abilities, inspiration and regular reactions in addition to decent damage.

 

[Hatmatter]

1. Rules lawyers are fine with using inference if it means they get more power.

I think, though, in thinking this through with everyone, a consensus is developing wherein the ability to acquire en Epic Boon Feat at 19+ total character level is the intent, so -- based upon the conversation in this thread -- I am not with you that there is an exploit occurring here.

2. It showcases how awfully designed multiclassing is that 1 character will have 1 epic boon while another will have 2 depending on their order of levels. I'm assuming a similar thing still happens with the order of the first level as it did in 2014. I think I will look into that next just for my curiosity.

It's funny. I have enjoyed the multiclassing rules for 5th edition D&D better than any of the previous versions. You have expressed how negatively you regard them a few times here, so I know you disagree. But, to me, back in 2014, the writers of the game hit upon a way to provide for a way for players to fulfill all kinds of different character concepts through multiclassing, but without breaking the game. Further, it is simple. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. It seems with all of the Youtube videos on character building that use multiclassing, it is popular with others as well.

The reason I do not have any issue with there being certain ways of multiclassing that result in 2 Epic Boons at 20th level is that, first, we are discussing a game here and there are always funky little elements like that in a game (they are even fun to play with), and second, for those using multiclassing and feats for the past ten years, leveling up in certain classes to certain levels has always been a consideration if one wanted regular feats (unless fighter, one would want to hit 4th, 8th, 12th, or 16th in a class in order to be able to acquire feats). That was never an issue for me before.

So, right now, the leveling options for acquiring a second Epic Boon at 20th level are 12/8, 16/4, 12/4/4, 8/8/4, 8/4/4/4 (wild), and 4/4/4/4/4 (crazy). I am sure there are all kinds of interesting character class combinations that do not use those and I am sure not having a second Epic Boon is not that big of a deal for those players, especially given that Epic Boons continue to be available at 21st level and beyond.

 

[abirdcall]

I think, though, in thinking this through with everyone, a consensus is developing wherein the ability to acquire en Epic Boon Feat at 19+ total character level is the intent, so -- based upon the conversation in this thread -- I am not with you that there is an exploit occurring here.

It's funny. I have enjoyed the multiclassing rules for 5th edition D&D better than any of the previous versions. You have expressed how negatively you regard them a few times here, so I know you disagree. But, to me, back in 2014, the writers of the game hit upon a way to provide for a way for players to fulfill all kinds of different character concepts through multiclassing, but without breaking the game. Further, it is simple. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. It seems with all of the Youtube videos on character building that use multiclassing, it is popular with others as well.

The reason I do not have any issue with there being certain ways of multiclassing that result in 2 Epic Boons at 20th level is that, first, we are discussing a game here and there are always funky little elements like that in a game (they are even fun to play with), and second, for those using multiclassing and feats for the past ten years, leveling up in certain classes to certain levels has always been a consideration if one wanted regular feats (unless fighter, one would want to hit 4th, 8th, 12th, or 16th in a class in order to be able to acquire feats). That was never an issue for me before.

So, right now, the leveling options for acquiring a second Epic Boon at 20th level are 12/8, 16/4, 12/4/4, 8/8/4, 8/4/4/4 (wild), and 4/4/4/4/4 (crazy). I am sure there are all kinds of interesting character class combinations that do not use those and I am sure not having a second Epic Boon is not that big of a deal for those players, especially given that Epic Boons continue to be available at 21st level and beyond.

The thing is, rules lawyers don't care about intent.

They always argue for some strict literal reading of the rules that they twist for their gain.

Only here they care about intent because it makes the character more powerful.

Do they support different character concepts or do they just support different combos?

The multiclassing rules are atrocious for having people play a blend of classes because their character is going to end up being very weak for half the game. It is just good for either grabbing the multitude of 1st level features or making a combo.

 

[Hatmatter]

The thing is, rules lawyers don't care about intent.

Do they support different character concepts or do they just support different combos?

The multiclassing rules are atrocious for having people play a blend of classes because their character is going to end up being very weak for half the game. It is just good for either grabbing the multitude of 1st level features or making a combo.

I really do not know, Ad Hoc. I have never played with such a creature that you describe as a rules lawyer. I read posts by people who would likely meet the definition here, that's about it. The multiclass builds by people on Youtube like DnD Builds (the impetus for my original post), Tulok the Barbarian, and others are intending to try to replicate character concepts from pop culture using D&D. When I started playing with AD&D and then with 2nd edition, this wasn't really possible (except in the most obvious way), so it's been fun for me to watch these videos and think about character creation in this way. And it has helped me understand the 5th edition books a bit better -- examples being how and when Epic Book Feats are acquired and, as previously mentioned, how Jack of All Trades worked in the 2014 PHB.

I can't really relate to your other observations. Sounds like you have had a very different experience than me.

Thanks for participating from the beginning...you and the others helped me think out loud and get a handle on this aspect of the new book that I was obviously struggling to understand.

Cheers!