D&D 3.x 3.5: Out With A Whimper

[Vigilance]

Okay. I've worked retail. The seasonals are a mixed bag. We get the people who only want the discount as well as those who stay on and actually wind up replacing permanent staffers.

Exactly, they're a mixed bag. The net effect, in my years of experience as a retail manager was, that if you were lucky, you got enough good ones to clean up the messes of the bad ones.

Self inflicted wound. They've failed to take into account the initial amount of manhours and took on more work than they can handle.

Maybe, but in any big project like this, you have to decide what you're going to need beforehand, and then roll with what you have available. Again, once the ball has started rolling, you can't really just staff up.

I've seen managers with decades of experience guess wrong on how much seasonal help they'd need in a mall store. I can forgive someone not exactly estimating how many folks it would take to do something as major as this.

My take on this is that Wizards probably has a much better handle on what they're doing than either of us. Their roster is littered with guys who have been through major product launches, or even new editions of D&D.

Knowing what you're doing =/= things going perfectly all the time.

 

[Reynard]

How's that not a great big gift to the gaming community?

The idea that its free so it is okay if it is late, or not particularly useful or little more than marketting hyperbole isn't the point. The point is that WotC has 3 kinds of current customers to concern themselves with: those that are definitely going 4e, those that definitely aren't, and those that aren't certain. Of those, the last one is the only type that really counts -- the 4e folks are in the bag and the non-4e folks are already out the door. Those that aren't sure, but are still having a good old time playing 3.0 or 3.5 are worth the resources, I think. Adventures are one way to do that, sure, but if the last couple years has shown us anything it is that crunch sells. WotC has a huge reservoir of crunch, much of which is inspiring parts of 4e or being ported directly over. Getting existing players using and loving that crunch, as well as keeping them excited about D&D and thinking of Wizards first -- whether through print products or e-Dragon -- will have tangible benefits come the 4e launch. Instead, it seems like there's a lot of lip service, a lot of "3E sucks and 4e will rock, but keep playing 3E for now. Pretty please?!"

Now, I could be wrong about how important the fence sitters are -- how many there are and how much WotC thinks they need them based on projected new players.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Maybe, but in any big project like this, you have to decide what you're going to need beforehand, and then roll with what you have available. Again, once the ball has started rolling, you can't really just staff up.

But when did the ball get rolling? According to some, they count the 3.5 work as the ball rolling. That would be years. And even now, they still have six months till the books hit the shelves? If you're bleeding to death in a dirty alley, do you just sit there going, "well, the ball has started rolling."

My take on this is that Wizards probably has a much better handle on what they're doing than either of us.

Agreed.

Their roster is littered with guys who have been through major product launches, or even new editions of D&D.

True

Knowing what you're doing =/= things going perfectly all the time.

Agreed.

And I'll give WoTC this. They've changed directions a few times (naming of certain feats, Eberron planned changes, etc...) based on fan reaction.

 

[Imaro]

Didn't they? They outsourced the development of most of the software. They have freelance writers covering articles. Yes, they aren't monthly, but, they are bi-monthly, and free. Free, professional quality articles and modules for six months. How's that not a great big gift to the gaming community?

Come on now. WotC is a corporation...free Dragon and Dungeon are not a "gift to the gaming community". They were suppose to be a way to sell the gaming community on the new e-zines (which WotC had no experience in doing yet cancelled the print magazines for) and assuage the irritation alot of people felt over them snatching the print magazines up. You do realize that they are going with a subscription model, right? Which means in order to sample the e-zines once they go into pay mode, one will have to make a considerable commitment to them. I'm not getting roped into 3 months, 6 months or a year of something I haven't been impressed with.

It was WotC who hyped themselves up into this corner, not the fans. We were told it would be bettter than what had come before and they would show us why over the free period. Now looking at WotC as a company (because they are not my friend, buddy, whatever) it's their fault if they bit off more than they can chew. Paizo could have easily held the magazine license until they finished 4e, WotC made the choice that they were ready for this and have no one to blame but themselves if they were not. In this situation they held all the cards and chose how to play them.

If anything this was WotC chance to show us how wonderful these e-zines would be compared to the print. So far, IMHO, Dungeon has remained basically on par with it's predecessor (though now I have to waste ink and paper in printing it up and it doesn't look as good)...while Dragon has been a dissapointment. So for me they have in no way shown why I would want to commit to these e-zines or even in what way they are better than the print mags. At least not enough for me to commit to a subscription. See it would be a different story if, like the print mags I could browse through an issue and make a decision to buy that particular one or not...but that's not feasible with this model. I mean sheesh, Mongooose as a company is magnitudes smaller than WotC yet they put out a high quality e-zine for their games every month...and it's free.

 

[Henry]

So far, to me it looks like they're right on track with the tidbits and releases for previews: Enough so that it should be irrelevant if Dungeon and Dragon are used for this purpose. As to their main purpose, getting people excited enough to pay for them when they're not free any more, I don't think they done it, but I don't think they COULD do it, because of the fundamental problem: Those who have made up their minds NOT to take an electronic offering, won't be swayed no matter what. Those who like the idea, are probably going to buy it. When 4E finally gets rolling, and all those 4E modules, articles, and such they're going to be storing up in advance, that's when we'll see it.

Let's be honest in regards to previews: What is e-Dungeon and e-Dragon going to give us that we haven't already seen before? We already know the quality of writers they have; we already know the track record of Chris Thomasson (sp?) and his fellow staffers; They aren't suddenly going to start sucking wind nor becoming excellent when writing for the monitor instead of the page.

They're going to do their best, they'll do the quality of work they've always done, and those who liked it as much as Erik's and James' work are going to like it, and those who don't think they did as well as Erik and James are going to dislike it. It's all down to who's at the helm, not what shape the hull is.

 

[Hussar]

It was WotC who hyped themselves up into this corner, not the fans. We were told it would be bettter than what had come before and they would show us why over the free period. Now looking at WotC as a company (because they are not my friend, buddy, whatever) it's their fault if they bit off more than they can chew. Paizo could have easily held the magazine license until they finished 4e, WotC made the choice that they were ready for this and have no one to blame but themselves if they were not. In this situation they held all the cards and chose how to play them.

Imagine the screaming for a second. You're going to have almost a year of Dragon and Dungeon from Paizo supporting an edition that is going out the door. And, you still don't build any support for the online offerings.

It's funny, I downloaded the first Dragon and took a look. It's 76 pages long, so, it's about 25 pages short of what we had before. Except, there's no advertising, so, there's about 10 pages, no comics, about another 4 pages. So, now we're up to 90 pages equivalent. Pretty much the same size. Articles are pretty much the same as what we saw before. Same writers anyway.

So, we've gone to a bi-monthly format, but, we're getting it for free.

Sure, it's advertising. I realize that. But, how is several free issues of Dragon and Dungeon not a major gift to the community? I mean, come on. Name a single magazine that gives out SIX MONTHS worth of material for free just to get you to come on board. Name a single gaming magazine that's going to give you about 20 full length professional quality adventures FOR FREE.

I'm failing to see how they've "bitten off more than they could chew". They said they were going bi-monthly. They've given us professional quality magazines. What more do you want?

Since you brought up Mongoose's Signs and Portents, let's compare shall we. I just took a look at issue 51. We've got a 74 page pdf, with advertisements, no full color art, and six pages of product listings for Mongoose. It's a far cry from what you got with Dragon or Dungeon. ((Very cool material though - ))

 

[Vigilance]

Come on now. WotC is a corporation...free Dragon and Dungeon are not a "gift to the gaming community". They were suppose to be a way to sell the gaming community on the new e-zines (which WotC had no experience in doing yet cancelled the print magazines for) and assuage the irritation alot of people felt over them snatching the print magazines up.

They didn't "snatch" anything up. This wasn't a hostile takeover from Paizo. The magazines were always Wizards' property and they decided to do something else with them.

You do realize that they are going with a subscription model, right? Which means in order to sample the e-zines once they go into pay mode, one will have to make a considerable commitment to them. I'm not getting roped into 3 months, 6 months or a year of something I haven't been impressed with.

They've also said there will always be free articles, so yes, I imagine you will get to browse. I'd also guess there will be a monthly model, as well as longer commitments that will be discounted. Sort of the way Marvel does their new e-comics service.

It was WotC who hyped themselves up into this corner, not the fans. We were told it would be bettter than what had come before and they would show us why over the free period.

No, what they said was that they felt the internet was a place where they could reach more people than print. It's not the content that they are trying to improve, it's the distribution model.

Now looking at WotC as a company (because they are not my friend, buddy, whatever) it's their fault if they bit off more than they can chew. Paizo could have easily held the magazine license until they finished 4e, WotC made the choice that they were ready for this and have no one to blame but themselves if they were not. In this situation they held all the cards and chose how to play them.

Let's be clear, Wizards knows what they're doing here. They have one of the most successful e-gaming businesses around, in Magic Online. The gentlemen in charge of the electronic side of things, as opposed to Chris Thomasson who's an editor, is a longtime veteran of Magic Online, which has high customer satisfaction and is very profitable.

So no, they really aren't rookies to providing things online.

If anything this was WotC chance to show us how wonderful these e-zines would be compared to the print. So far, IMHO, Dungeon has remained basically on par with it's predecessor (though now I have to waste ink and paper in printing it up and it doesn't look as good)...while Dragon has been a dissapointment. So for me they have in no way shown why I would want to commit to these e-zines or even in what way they are better than the print mags. At least not enough for me to commit to a subscription. See it would be a different story if, like the print mags I could browse through an issue and make a decision to buy that particular one or not...but that's not feasible with this model.

Again, I they've said they're going to have free articles every month even when they begin charging for the service. I'm not sure why you want to try to paint this service as an attempt to rope people in blind to a 1 year commitment when we haven't been told a single thing about how the pricing will work.

I mean sheesh, Mongooose as a company is magnitudes smaller than WotC yet they put out a high quality e-zine for their games every month...and it's free.

Signs and Portents is great. It also contains a LOT of advertising to support its free status. What Wizards is doing is something different. I think a better analogy is Marvel Digital Comics and Magic Online, both of which seem to be doing rather well getting subscribers.

 

[Rechan]

I mean sheesh, Mongooose as a company is magnitudes smaller than WotC yet they put out a high quality e-zine for their games every month...and it's free.

I wouldn't agree with this completely.

At least, the 3e stuff I saw coming out of Mongoose wasn't necessarily balanced, to my eye.

 

[Imaro]

Imagine the screaming for a second. You're going to have almost a year of Dragon and Dungeon from Paizo supporting an edition that is going out the door. And, you still don't build any support for the online offerings.

It's funny, I downloaded the first Dragon and took a look. It's 76 pages long, so, it's about 25 pages short of what we had before. Except, there's no advertising, so, there's about 10 pages, no comics, about another 4 pages. So, now we're up to 90 pages equivalent. Pretty much the same size. Articles are pretty much the same as what we saw before. Same writers anyway.

So, we've gone to a bi-monthly format, but, we're getting it for free.

Sure, it's advertising. I realize that. But, how is several free issues of Dragon and Dungeon not a major gift to the community? I mean, come on. Name a single magazine that gives out SIX MONTHS worth of material for free just to get you to come on board. Name a single gaming magazine that's going to give you about 20 full length professional quality adventures FOR FREE.

I'm failing to see how they've "bitten off more than they could chew". They said they were going bi-monthly. They've given us professional quality magazines. What more do you want?

Since you brought up Mongoose's Signs and Portents, let's compare shall we. I just took a look at issue 51. We've got a 74 page pdf, with advertisements, no full color art, and six pages of product listings for Mongoose. It's a far cry from what you got with Dragon or Dungeon. ((Very cool material though - ))

Perhaps I'm wrong...but I don't remeber screaming and outrage about Dragon and Dungeon during the switch from 2nd to 3rd. Much as some posters try to make it seem like fans don't understand what an edition switch is, they do. However During the 2nd to 3rd switch there was still numerous articles for those who were playing 2nd at that time and previews for those interested in 3e.

Uhm...I already gave you a gaming magazine that does this...Signs & Portents. Actually it's always free, so more than 6 months.

I really don't see your point about Mongoose...90 pages of dragon over 60 days vs. 148pgs of Sign and Portents every 60 days...both free. Even if 1/4th is advertisements thats stillmore than Dragon...Not to mention Mongoose actually does two mags, one for roleplayers and one for wargammers. As far as color art, I haven't downloaded issue 51 yet but issue 50 certainly does have full color art. Oh yeah, and since the main crux of your arument seems to be "it's free"...did I mention S&P is always FREE, back issues and current.

 

[Imaro]

I wouldn't agree with this completely.

At least, the 3e stuff I saw coming out of Mongoose wasn't necessarily balanced, to my eye.

And this proves their not a smaller company than WotC how again?