D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] scorching ray?

[Technik4]

Seems Very Powerful

I was actually hoping Aganazzer's Scorcher would be along these lines (and may house-rule this to be named that) because it is, as others have said, an excellent 2nd level damage spell. In fact, a glance I thought it "too" powerful. Consider Flaming Sphere, by the time you get it you cast it, it lasts 3 rounds, which is 3 chances for 2d6 (SR and Reflex save, no RTA). At higher levels, the Flaming Sphere lasts longer, but at higher levels time is more important than damage over time.

This is why I believe it may still be a little too powerful. Sure Melf's has no SR and no Save, however its damage is based over time. Over time metamagicked versions even out in damage/utility. The problem is, at high levels, time becomes more important than at lower levels (even though 3.5 is apparantly rectifying this a bit). Therefore the potential 20 saves an opponent would have to make against a Flaming Sphere (for 40d6 damage) is balanced because this would take 2 minutes (or 20 rounds) to execute. I don't think any battle without an intermission lasts >20 rounds, and even if it did, Flaming Sphere requires a move-equiv every round you want to move it (which is usually every round).

So its on the very upper edge of what a 2nd level spell should be, which is what I also say for Magic Missile and Fireball.

Technik

 

[Darklone]

Re: Seems Very Powerful

I was actually hoping Aganazzer's Scorcher would be along these lines ...

Agannazars Scorcher: Refl save half damage, area of effect: line, short range, up to 5d6 damage... Lots stronger IMHO than scorching ray.

It may depend on your spellcaster (high DC type or high Dex type) though.

Spells for me should be countered by:
- Saves
- Resistances (DR or elemental protection)
- to hit rolls

The only spell who screws this is Magic Missile. Scorching ray is ok. The range is short ... our halforc bbn1/sorcerer has it and he often thinks about using his greataxe instead

 

[shoplifter]

I think another important thing to look at is range. Scorching Ray has a close range (25'+5'/lv) so if you're not within 50' of your target at 5th level, there's nothing doin', whereas with Melf's/Fireball I could toss it at someone around 550' away at 5th level, and MM can hit 150'. Pretty big range difference.

Of course, some campaigns never have anyone even try to toss a spell that far away. I wouldn't say its something that should be ignored though.

 

[Surfal]

The short range is a penalty; far too many times my short range spells have been, well, short

It can't be worth that much though. Getting back to comparisons...

Melf's and SR have the same chance of hitting, and both are a form of energy damage so a direct comparison between the two is simplest. Magic Missile is the baseline damage spell, so its in here too.

Level 3:
80% chance of a hit: SR averages 11.2, Melf's 4+4=8
50% chance of a hit: SR averages 7, Melf's 2.5+2.5=5
20% chance of a hit: SR averages 2.8, Melf's 1+1=2
Magic Missile 7

Level 7:
80% chance of a hit: SR averages 22.4, Melf's 4+4+4=12
50% chance of a hit: SR averages 14, Melf's 2.5+2.5+2.5=7.5
20% chance of a hit: SR averages 5.6, Melf's 1+1+1=3
Magic Missile 14

Level 11:
80% chance of a hit: SR averages 33.6, Melf's 16
50% chance of a hit: SR averages 21, Melf's 10
20% chance of a hit: SR averages 8.4, Melf's 4
Magic Missile 17.5

Level 15:
80% chance of a hit: SR averages 33.6, Melf's 24
50% chance of a hit: SR averages 21, Melf's 15
20% chance of a hit: SR averages 8.4, Melf's 6
Magic Missile 17.5

Level 19:
80% chance of a hit: SR averages 33.6, Melf's 28
50% chance of a hit: SR averages 21, Melf's 17.5
20% chance of a hit: SR averages 8.4, Melf's 7
Magic Missile 17.5

So, contrary to what I had thought, SR is better than Melf's at all levels. Now, I don't suspect anyone will claim that Melf's is a great spell at 2nd level (somebody will, but just to be contradictory ) Unfortunately, MM is only slightly weaker than SR, except at level 11 and above (assuming you can even use SR). So SR > MM >> Melf's, for pure damage dealing.

What about fireball?

Level 5: SR averages 11.2/7/2.8, fireball 14 assuming 40% save
Level 7: SR averages 22.4/14/5.6, fireball 19.6
Level 11+: SR 33.6/21/8.4, fireball 28

So fireball will do better except for the high level case with a good chance of hitting. Fireball also has a much better range and will affect lots of opponents. Fireball is definitely better.

Bottom line, I think its a little too good for level 2 and too weak for level 3, but I guess its not totally out of whack, considering MM hasn't been touched.

 

[Staffan]

IMO, a fire spell should be better at doing damage than an acid spell - there are far more creatures immune and/or resistant to fire than there are immune/resistant to acid (as an aside, that's why Energy Substitution is a bad feat from a game design standpoint, since it messes up the "balance" between the energy types).

 

[Technik4]

A tale of 3 flames

Ok, to compare 3 fire spells: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Aganazzer's Scorcher.

All 2nd level, all evocations, all fire descriptors (Aganazzer's Scorcher can be found in FRCS).

-The Max-
This is the most damage eah spell could deal out.

Flaming Sphere: 40d6 (potential)
Scorching Ray: 12d6
Aganazzer's Scorcher: 5d8 (Line Area Attack)

So clearly Flaming Sphere has the greatest potential, but it would also take 20 rounds, 20 failed reflex saves, and 19 move-equivelant actions to do that much damage. If you hit at least 2 people with Aganazzer's Scorcher you've got a chance for 10d8, but its also got a reflex save. Scorching Ray has no reflex save, but it requires a ranged touch. At high levels, there are more ranged touch attacks to fail (or critical), but this is true of the other spells (basically, because of saves more chances for the spell to fail - if the defender rolls a 20).

-The Min-
This is the damage each spell does when it is acquired at 3rd level.

Flaming Sphere: 6d6 (potential)
Scorching Ray: 4d6
Aganazzer's Scorcher: 3d8 (Line Area Attack)

Flaming Sphere requires 3 rounds, 2 extra move-equivelants, and 3 saves to do 6d6, but its range is medium. Scorching Ray is a a simple rta, so only 1 chance of failing. Aganazzer's Scorcher is a line effect, so it will always "hit", but because of reflex saves and evasion sometimes it will have no effect (or half effect).

They are all affected by SR, which hurts especially in the case of Flaming Sphere (rolling SR every round). At this point I fully believe flaming sphere should be a conjuration. You are "summoning" a ball of fire, then wielding it for rounds to come. While its damage potential is usually higher than the other spells, the time involved makes it unwieldy.

Scorching Ray is nice for pegging rogues and monks since Evasion isn't a factor. Its harder to nail wizards and other magicked up opponents however. Aganazzer's Scorcher is a 2nd level area effect spell, which makes it powerful right off the bat. As a 4th level wizard or sorceror, you can't do any better for damage (4d8) and this lasts until 7th level when scorching ray gets another ray. Even then, A.S. is still potentially more powerful, as it has the same range but affects a line worth of enemies.

Of course, know we may be wondering if Aganazzer's Scorcher is too good for a 2nd level spell... On another note, anyone use Flaming Sphere as a Conjuration?

Technik

 

[Jens]

The spell seems to be about right power-wise. But I wonder why the progression is so weird; 1x 4d6 from 3rd, 2x 4d6 from 7th, 3x 4d6 from 11th. Wouldn't it be 'neater' with total damage dice equal to/no greater than caster level; 1x 3d6 from 3rd, 2x 3d6 from 6th, 3x 3d6 from 9th, 4x 3d6 from 12th? OR with constant number of rays; 3x 1d6 from 3rd, 3x 2d6 from 6th, 3x 3d6 from 9th, 3x 4d6 from 12th?
... Or am I just forgetting to enjoy finally getting a decent damage spell at 2nd level?