WarlockLord
First Post
I think you'd be better off building something that can actually fight such as a pure cleric or warblade, and then if your teammates die due to crappy builds, they die.
D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Seen a tank like this before?
- Thread starter Turtlebuster
- Start date
Turtlebuster
First Post
I love some fresh opinions, thanks all.
Despite higher than suggested CRs, this PC can still execute 25 damage strikes on the low end and somewhere near 50 with the right devoted spirit manuevers. Nothing to brag about but it's hard to say it doesn't contribute.
@Sekhmet : You bring up a good point and I can't reasonably say you're wrong, but I can reasonably say you aren't going to be right all of the time there. Intelligence shouldn't be the only factor to consider determining an npc's actions. After all, with enough intelligence, an experienced warrior type might begin to recognize that this Tank is actually making it harder to kill the things that are a more serious threat. A low intelligence warrior type might not realize what's happening and might simply hack the first armed opponent he meets. If communication happens between the 2, one or both might even rush and grapple the Buuff Tank and create all kinds of interesting options for everyone. But on average, bonuses from spells and SU effects aren't going to give a warrior type much helpful indication as to who it's coming from or what to do to avoid it - and it will largely be affecting everyone. Also, while this build has a speed of 10ft/rd, there are just too many ways of improving that. Between White Raven charge related manuevers, inexpensive magic items, and at least 2 1st-2nd level cleric spells right of the top of my head, mobility CAN be addressed as needed, and an experienced group of mercenaries should have some way of ascertaining when they can leave the cover for the tank's shield and when they should return to it.
@kitcik : We've only met the one dragon, although there is an obvious snake-noid theme here so I doubt it's the first. The casters have all been pretty annoying but it's defintiely been the brutes that have kept us sweating nervously. And again, saves for THIS build will be incredible; the warblade almost always has his diamond mind counters when he needs them, and a significant amount of the time the warlock and ninja/rogue are invisible, which at the very least aids against targeted spells from a distance.
@Jacob Marley : a good observation, man. Again, I want to clear that this DM is pretty cuthroat and as good a tactician as a hardass DM should be (who isn't blatantly wanting to kill every pc with bigger dick). But as a habit, I think my whole "greater group" of dnd buds make efforts to not use more information than is obviously available to the respective pc/npc. Sometimes I feel that to eer on the side of caution I have played "less smart" than I could have, but to be realistic, it is impossible to completely forget that you know something the pc doesn't so It probably balances out.
Oh, and while clerics have a lot of options, I didn't want to play a straight class cleric for the sole reason that the last (unrelated) pc I rolled was straight cleric. I liked him, and one of my favorite pcs was a straight cleric. That might seem inconsequential, but as different as clerics can be from each other, I'm giving the straight cleric a rest. This cleric will have 3rd level spells to apply some buffs with, but in terms of our most needed statistic - hp/ac, I haven't found a better way to do it. I think there was some ceremony feat in one of the dragon related books that seemed ok but I also remember not likeing it for some reason.
EDIT: [MENTION=40098]WarlockLord[/MENTION]: hahah, you are probably right. I normally avoid martial adepts like the plague so I can't say I'd follow the class suggestions, but all the same I know we might all be better off for it. Unfortunately I would feel like I failed somewhere in there if I wasn't able to find a build that can carry this group. It's just me being narcissistic.
Despite higher than suggested CRs, this PC can still execute 25 damage strikes on the low end and somewhere near 50 with the right devoted spirit manuevers. Nothing to brag about but it's hard to say it doesn't contribute.
@Sekhmet : You bring up a good point and I can't reasonably say you're wrong, but I can reasonably say you aren't going to be right all of the time there. Intelligence shouldn't be the only factor to consider determining an npc's actions. After all, with enough intelligence, an experienced warrior type might begin to recognize that this Tank is actually making it harder to kill the things that are a more serious threat. A low intelligence warrior type might not realize what's happening and might simply hack the first armed opponent he meets. If communication happens between the 2, one or both might even rush and grapple the Buuff Tank and create all kinds of interesting options for everyone. But on average, bonuses from spells and SU effects aren't going to give a warrior type much helpful indication as to who it's coming from or what to do to avoid it - and it will largely be affecting everyone. Also, while this build has a speed of 10ft/rd, there are just too many ways of improving that. Between White Raven charge related manuevers, inexpensive magic items, and at least 2 1st-2nd level cleric spells right of the top of my head, mobility CAN be addressed as needed, and an experienced group of mercenaries should have some way of ascertaining when they can leave the cover for the tank's shield and when they should return to it.
@kitcik : We've only met the one dragon, although there is an obvious snake-noid theme here so I doubt it's the first. The casters have all been pretty annoying but it's defintiely been the brutes that have kept us sweating nervously. And again, saves for THIS build will be incredible; the warblade almost always has his diamond mind counters when he needs them, and a significant amount of the time the warlock and ninja/rogue are invisible, which at the very least aids against targeted spells from a distance.
@Jacob Marley : a good observation, man. Again, I want to clear that this DM is pretty cuthroat and as good a tactician as a hardass DM should be (who isn't blatantly wanting to kill every pc with bigger dick). But as a habit, I think my whole "greater group" of dnd buds make efforts to not use more information than is obviously available to the respective pc/npc. Sometimes I feel that to eer on the side of caution I have played "less smart" than I could have, but to be realistic, it is impossible to completely forget that you know something the pc doesn't so It probably balances out.
Oh, and while clerics have a lot of options, I didn't want to play a straight class cleric for the sole reason that the last (unrelated) pc I rolled was straight cleric. I liked him, and one of my favorite pcs was a straight cleric. That might seem inconsequential, but as different as clerics can be from each other, I'm giving the straight cleric a rest. This cleric will have 3rd level spells to apply some buffs with, but in terms of our most needed statistic - hp/ac, I haven't found a better way to do it. I think there was some ceremony feat in one of the dragon related books that seemed ok but I also remember not likeing it for some reason.
EDIT: [MENTION=40098]WarlockLord[/MENTION]: hahah, you are probably right. I normally avoid martial adepts like the plague so I can't say I'd follow the class suggestions, but all the same I know we might all be better off for it. Unfortunately I would feel like I failed somewhere in there if I wasn't able to find a build that can carry this group. It's just me being narcissistic.
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Turtlebuster
First Post
Aerial combat. well so far the warlock gunned down 1 yrthak and put another to sleep, effectively killing him in that situation. Dragons won't be dealable in the same ways, but the rogue and warlock together can probably put out enough ranged damage to combat a dragon if that is the main focus. It won't be ideal... but so far even with the green dragon we haven't had TOO much of a problem with being ranged.
@Nezkrul : Yes, you are of course right. This build has several neat options for turn attempts but I shouldn't use them very regularly. with the first version of this class the cleric domains selected were renewal and earth - renewal mostly for the flavorful tank-like granted power... but this could easily be converted to a domain with more turning.
In this way, the class could reliably use his highest dps strike nearly every turn +6d8 - not too shabby for a tank. His primary use of turn attempts was first for the min duration sacred bonus from the domain feat and the ability to use an immediate action to heal himself small amounts with the Divine Spirit feat. I think you are probably refferring to the Ruby Knight Vindicator class feature that lets you gain a swift action with an attempt, but honestly with the lack of swift/immediate actions this guy needs to make on a regular basis, I'd trade that feature for a ham sandwhich. I only actually went Ruby Knight over Ordained Champion because the build calls for some crusader abilities and I hate wasting potential - Ordained Champion would probably be my favorite PrC for a combat cleric and I plan to take it if we level past 15
@Nezkrul : Yes, you are of course right. This build has several neat options for turn attempts but I shouldn't use them very regularly. with the first version of this class the cleric domains selected were renewal and earth - renewal mostly for the flavorful tank-like granted power... but this could easily be converted to a domain with more turning.
In this way, the class could reliably use his highest dps strike nearly every turn +6d8 - not too shabby for a tank. His primary use of turn attempts was first for the min duration sacred bonus from the domain feat and the ability to use an immediate action to heal himself small amounts with the Divine Spirit feat. I think you are probably refferring to the Ruby Knight Vindicator class feature that lets you gain a swift action with an attempt, but honestly with the lack of swift/immediate actions this guy needs to make on a regular basis, I'd trade that feature for a ham sandwhich. I only actually went Ruby Knight over Ordained Champion because the build calls for some crusader abilities and I hate wasting potential - Ordained Champion would probably be my favorite PrC for a combat cleric and I plan to take it if we level past 15
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
You want a real martial tank eh? Martial GOD (or how to be a BSF and GOD at the same time)
Basically what that build does is targets a set of squares and throws his spiked chain to catch most of it with any of a daze, trip, or bull rush. Improvements can be made such as using the second fighter level for Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape 10), and with Knockback and Power Attack pretty much all your attacks can bull rush an enemy into something. Improved Trip and Knock-down of course mean you'll always get a trip attempt on every attack, and then an extra hit if the trip succeeds.
Are you guys using flaws? Feats are key with this build, and an extra two feats at first level is amazing.
It is a bit cheesy thanks to using the Aptitude weapon enhancement, but without that there's still some good control to be had. Knock-down, knockback, and shock trooper combine quite well, especially on a dungeoncrasher fighter.
Basically what that build does is targets a set of squares and throws his spiked chain to catch most of it with any of a daze, trip, or bull rush. Improvements can be made such as using the second fighter level for Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape 10), and with Knockback and Power Attack pretty much all your attacks can bull rush an enemy into something. Improved Trip and Knock-down of course mean you'll always get a trip attempt on every attack, and then an extra hit if the trip succeeds.
Are you guys using flaws? Feats are key with this build, and an extra two feats at first level is amazing.
It is a bit cheesy thanks to using the Aptitude weapon enhancement, but without that there's still some good control to be had. Knock-down, knockback, and shock trooper combine quite well, especially on a dungeoncrasher fighter.
WarlockLord
First Post
Couple things. At this level, 25-50 damage is kind of a joke, especially against dragons and casters. If you want a build that can carry the group, it will probably end up being some sort of caster (buff cleric, buff wizard, BFC wizard, etc). And I don't mean to be mean and crap all over your dude, but I spent quite a while last night trying to make a fighter who was immune to most wizard spells, and I couldn't find a way around force effects without either taking up some sort of power source such as incarnum or being, yet again, the Magic Item Bitch.
Turtlebuster
First Post
25-50 damage is a joke to a dragon or caster at what level? I'm assuming the dragon was young adult in which case it probably had 178 hp. 50 damage isn't by any means insanity, but if the one pc who is not designed soley to hurt things is taking less than 4 attacks to down the single largest creature it doesn't seem like a joke. And a caster... I don't know exactly what we are facing here but assuming that these are sorceror variants with d8s and ecl 10 each (sinc i've seen 5th level spells) an abnormally high con score would still have him sitting somewhere under 100.
[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]: thanks for the vote. there are some dodge tree feats that might help - improved toughness might be alright if I didn't value a caster level over fighter bonus feats.
[MENTION=98256]kitcik[/MENTION]: what you say is helpful for a tank who wants to avoid hits, but without significant caster levels or cheesing UMD it won't help my allies. Illusion effects are less effective with how many blindisight creatures there are. A build meant to multi cast buffs might be reasonable, but these burrowers ambush us from time to time and I hate being a flatfooded caster waiting through 2 turns of initiative just to through a couple buffs on people who are already more than half dead. Flying is almost always a good idea - I have a weird drawback to using it personally... it normally seems undignified for a hero. Depends on the hero I guess. But even were I to go that route I'd need to make EVERYone fly or it would just mean losing pcs - and one of our group is very not designed for fighting with anything other than his huge sized warmace
[MENTION=6678119]Jackinthegreen[/MENTION]: haha yuk. I've read it before, not my cup of team. In my opinion it's just too messy. Not that my first build here isn't pretty ugly, but if I was going for damage/physical control it'd be very easy to do with pure dungeoncrasher, combat brute and shock troop + the obvious trip/bullrush expansion on that. To be honest, in almost any case you would end up with an inifinte loop of bullrush/attacks/tripps and would make supreme cleave look like kid's stuff. But I'm not really looking to break DnD here or rely on a DM's good attitude about a super cheese set up. I might take your advice and ask about flaws. We didn't begin with that as an option but we also originally expected 6 pcs and I don't think the encounters have been adjusted much to deal with 4 so some more optimization may be allowed.
I'm already trying to revise this build. A lot of ideas come to mind but I love turning attempts, I have a hard time dropping below caster lv5 and I don't have the bonus feats for most of what I consider. hmm
[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]: thanks for the vote. there are some dodge tree feats that might help - improved toughness might be alright if I didn't value a caster level over fighter bonus feats.
[MENTION=98256]kitcik[/MENTION]: what you say is helpful for a tank who wants to avoid hits, but without significant caster levels or cheesing UMD it won't help my allies. Illusion effects are less effective with how many blindisight creatures there are. A build meant to multi cast buffs might be reasonable, but these burrowers ambush us from time to time and I hate being a flatfooded caster waiting through 2 turns of initiative just to through a couple buffs on people who are already more than half dead. Flying is almost always a good idea - I have a weird drawback to using it personally... it normally seems undignified for a hero. Depends on the hero I guess. But even were I to go that route I'd need to make EVERYone fly or it would just mean losing pcs - and one of our group is very not designed for fighting with anything other than his huge sized warmace
[MENTION=6678119]Jackinthegreen[/MENTION]: haha yuk. I've read it before, not my cup of team. In my opinion it's just too messy. Not that my first build here isn't pretty ugly, but if I was going for damage/physical control it'd be very easy to do with pure dungeoncrasher, combat brute and shock troop + the obvious trip/bullrush expansion on that. To be honest, in almost any case you would end up with an inifinte loop of bullrush/attacks/tripps and would make supreme cleave look like kid's stuff. But I'm not really looking to break DnD here or rely on a DM's good attitude about a super cheese set up. I might take your advice and ask about flaws. We didn't begin with that as an option but we also originally expected 6 pcs and I don't think the encounters have been adjusted much to deal with 4 so some more optimization may be allowed.
I'm already trying to revise this build. A lot of ideas come to mind but I love turning attempts, I have a hard time dropping below caster lv5 and I don't have the bonus feats for most of what I consider. hmm
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