Spyritwind said:
Hmmmm I think the cleric needed help exactly for the reason that no one wanted to play them and I'm not sure they are too uber now. Don't get me wrong, they are a good class now, but before they sucked.
I agree. Unless you used some weird custom rules (the cure-all of AD&D - half the rules were restrictions and the rest were rules to work around these restrictions) clerics wouldn't be any fun.
Fighters usually still fight better and once a Wiz or Sorc gets high enough level they still out damage a cleric with spells by far.
Well, the key of using spells to maximum effect on enemies isn't using damage spells - against masses of enemies that's great (and a wizard will really shine), but against a single powerfull enemy, the fighter will do much more damage than the wizard (or other spellcaster). The trick is to affect the enemy on some other way - paralize him, slow him, blind him, kill him. And the cleric is good enough with these things.
The cleric still ends up being a support fighter, healer and some times a support offensive spell chucker at high levels. A very versitle class yes, but master of none with the exception of defensive spells which may be an issue in regards to the defensiveness of arcane casters.
A cleric can come close to the other classes, especially if he concentrates on one thing. His nice abilities and his spells will help him with that. But then again, his nice abilities and spells can, to a degree, help others as well, making them better, too. And D&D is all about working together. (A selfish cleric can be really powerful)
I've always gone with + 1 hp per level on a continuing basis. By the time you are a low to mid level character 3 hps don't mean squat any more. It's a great feat for the begining arcane spell chucker, but it'll bite you in the A$$ later when you think of the feat you wasted at first level that doesn't do much of any thing for you any more.
But you will live to bite you into any parts you like. Without that 3 hp, you may well bite the dust, because your 5 hp were not enough for that crit from the goblin, even though he rolled average.
I'malso surprised they didn't flesh out the half orc, or perhaps I should say I wish they had not that I'm actualy surprised that they didn't. Since strength is such an important component of many, but not all, character classes it's not that they are not powerful enough it's that they are borring as a race over all.
They can be quite a roleplaying challenge. Not all races are the perfect match for every character class. They're OK as they are IMO (at least ability-wise. I don't like the green races)
When all you get is +2 Str and darkvision and you have communication penalties (-2 CHA) and less skill points (-2 INT) what kind of players/classes would pick such a race? Only hack and slash min max fighters (not that they aren't fun to play some times) because there is no other reason to take the class. Sure, sure there is the exceptional player that chooses a half orc for a non fighter class for actual 'role' playing purposes, but it is just that ... an exception.
It doesn't have to be a min/max fighter. Using a race that has nice ability score bonuses for your race isn't min/maxing yet.
Look at the dwarf for instance. Bonus CON, which is probably the second most important stat for most fighters unless you are a dex based fighter, you don't lose a skill point (no negative to INT) and you get a lot of other benifits as well, including dark vision. Depending on how one looks at it the min/maxing might be from the player that picks the dwarf.
You're saying they're the powergamer's wet dream, while the half-orc should?
Not all races are created equal (actually, I'd choose a dwarf over a half-orc even if their racial traits were reversed, cause I only choose races I like.)
