[3.5E] In The Works - Changes to the Titan

[BryonD]

Yet another problem with the new DR system IMO. Before with it just being magic, you could focus it all into your sword and avoid many sunders by its magical power. Now you have to diversify, an items will shatter left and right when facing semi intelligent foes.

Sundering was a tactically sound action before now its tactically retarded not to sunder if your DR is to a special material or alignment. And honestly sunders are just anti fun like a mordenkinens disjunciton, I really don't want more motivaiton to use them.

To me this shows why the old DR was so bad.

So many people are now locked into thinking that DR MUST be ignored by the appropriate weapon OR run away from.

BORING!!!!

The whole idea that now you CAN deal with DR and sometimes will have to deal with DR makes heroic combat all that much better.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hmm... a typical 20th-level fighter should have an AC of around 42, so he probably gets hit a bit too often.

If we assume that the typical 20th level fighter wears a +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 fullplate, and a +5 ring of protection, has a 12 dex and the dodge feat, that's still only AC 40. If the character also uses a +5 large shield, it can go up to 47. It goes all the way up to 49 if the fighter wears Mithral fullplate and has a 16 modified dex but it stops there. And at that point, the titan still hits on a roll of a 12.

That's what Spring Attack is for. I hope they add some balanced options to boost a fighter's speed ... it's difficult to move at 45 ft. in full-plate

If you assume that every fighter-type character has Spring Attack or Ride By Attack that's fine. For fighter types who don't have those feats though (and it ought to be viable to create a viable fighter-type without the spring attack feat chain; if it's not practical to do so, then the whole "options" aspect of playing a fighter which was so interesting in 3e is only an illusion in 3.5e)

Besides, you might need to use the new Power Attack if penetrating DR is a problem. That's very useful with Spring Attack

The new Haste and the fatigue and exhaustion spells are also very useful in conjunction with Spring Attack. That doesn't make it fun to spring attack an exhausted opponent (who can't charge) to death though.

The wizard ... heh heh. Wow! Now maybe his save-or-die spells might not work half the time, which IMO is a good thing. (Same for the cleric, although a cleric doesn't have many high-level Will save or die spells).

True. In fact, save or dies will hardly ever work unless the wizard uses some spellpower granting prestige class. 20th level and greater spell penetration will give a 65% chance of beating SR. A 28 int (15 starting +5 level, +6 item, +2 wish or tome), greater spell focus (3.5e version), and a 9th level spell give a DC of 30. Since Save or Dies are almost always Fort, the Titan will save on a roll of 3 for fort saves (and a roll of 9 for will saves for the "save or consequences spells). So make that a 7% chance of actually effecting the Titan with a Save or Die and a 26% chance to actually effect the Titan with a save or consequences spell. (An 18 starting int and +5 int from wish or tomes yields 32 int and DC 33 which is a 9% chance to get a fort save spell to work and a 30% chance to get a will save spell to work). And that's with all the appropriate feats. When those are the odds for effecting the Titan with a 9th level spell that will actually effect the combat in an interesting way (wave of exhaustion would effect combat but it would make it boring) is that low, it tips the wizard balance even more in the "You must be a max starting int, sun/grey elf greater spell focussed, greater spell penetrating, Archmage/Red Wizard/Incantatrix if you want to play the game past level 10" direction. Not a good change if you ask me.

The apparent across the board dramatic SR increases, and save increases combined with the spell focus nerf exponentially effects the viability of all wizards--and the less min/maxed the wizard, the worse they get hammered.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

To me this shows why the old DR was so bad.

So many people are now locked into thinking that DR MUST be ignored by the appropriate weapon OR run away from.

BORING!!!!

The whole idea that now you CAN deal with DR and sometimes will have to deal with DR makes heroic combat all that much better.

No that's why the old DR was so fun. It actually allowed you to play the game, and get to the business of heroic combat. The new DR, is a silly gimick sacrificing playability for a poor imitation of flavor.

 

[Grog]

Hmm... a typical 20th-level fighter should have an AC of around 42, so he probably gets hit a bit too often.

42? How do you figure? I guess if he uses a shield, he can get there... But then his damage really takes a hit.

That's what Spring Attack is for. I hope they add some balanced options to boost a fighter's speed ... it's difficult to move at 45 ft. in full-plate

Besides, you might need to use the new Power Attack if penetrating DR is a problem. That's very useful with Spring Attack

Well, you'd want to kill the titan as quickly as possible before it wipes the party out with its SLAs, so Spring Attack might not be the best idea... And sure you can power attack, but then you're increasing the odds that you'll miss.

I need to take a look at my "stock 20th-level rogue" again to be on the safe side. I think his attack bonus was around +30 to +33, so he still hits more than half the time with his first attack. (Add another +2 for flanking?) I have to alter his archery stats, however, now that I know enhancement bonuses to bows and arrows don't stack. However, his short sword attack bonus was +30 to +33.

The cleric can only reliably hit if he buffs (assuming he doesn't have a +6 Strength boosting item like Jozan in Enemies and Allies).

The wizard ... heh heh. Wow! Now maybe his save-or-die spells might not work half the time, which IMO is a good thing. (Same for the cleric, although a cleric doesn't have many high-level Will save or die spells).

Elder Basilisk already posted about the chances of save-or-dies working... It'll be very, very difficult to affect the titan with a death spell. And as far as getting him with a Hold spell, note that that does nothing to prevent use of his SLAs, so he can just gate himself away if that happens.

 

[Dthamilaye]

If we assume that the typical 20th level fighter wears a +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 fullplate, and a +5 ring of protection, has a 12 dex and the dodge feat, that's still only AC 40. If the character also uses a +5 large shield, it can go up to 47. It goes all the way up to 49 if the fighter wears Mithral fullplate and has a 16 modified dex but it stops there. And at that point, the titan still hits on a roll of a 12.

Talking in 3.0 ed terms, add haste (+4 AC), Mirror image, displacement, Blink, Shield spell + 2h weapon (same ac as +5 medium shield), Bracers of armour +8 and infinite dex, or at least get Nimbleness enchantment in your plate mail.

Some other helpful things are spell turning, invisibility (he must use an action to invis purge if he wants to see you), SR, Fire Shield etc.
Lots of ways for fighter to make it harder to hit himself.

Of course, targetted greater dispel might ruin the day. Happily you have the counterspelling caster with you, or spell turning.

As far as I understand, this monster is not supposed to be tackled by one 20th or 21st fighter . It is supposed to be confronted in a group of four, all around level 20.

 

[Caliban]

If we assume that the typical 20th level fighter wears a +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 fullplate, and a +5 ring of protection, has a 12 dex and the dodge feat, that's still only AC 40. If the character also uses a +5 large shield, it can go up to 47. It goes all the way up to 49 if the fighter wears Mithral fullplate and has a 16 modified dex but it stops there. And at that point, the titan still hits on a roll of a 12.

Trust me, it doesn't stop anywhere close to there.

I've got an 11th level fighter who can achieve an AC of 46+, and all his equipment is only +1 or +2.

Granted, it will be much harder to achive this in 3.5, as two of the biggest AC boosts are diminished (Haste and Shield spells), but there are several AC enhancing options that you aren't considering.

 

[Olive]

No that's why the old DR was so fun. It actually allowed you to play the game, and get to the business of heroic combat. The new DR, is a silly gimick sacrificing playability for a poor imitation of flavor.

Well, I actually like it, I don't think it makes the game less playable (especially with reduced numbers), and it mkes DR more interesting. So there you go.

 

[Grog]

Lots of ways for fighter to make it harder to hit himself.

The titan also doesn't seem to have true sight, so displacement would help a lot, too.

 

[Grog]

Well, I actually like it, I don't think it makes the game less playable (especially with reduced numbers),

Even the reduced numbers are still very significant if you're a dual wielder.

 

[Dthamilaye]

I mentioned displacement in my post above...

I forgot all the feat things, like expertise and two weapon defence and defending weapons.

For offence, brilliant energy weapon helps a bit, slow some more, hold is even better. Of course, you have to get a guy to cast dimensional anchor or lock around, so that the titan doesn't vanish.

I don't know, but some heat metal spells and such might get his ac down too. Rusting grasp, mordenkainens DJ and whatever.

Also remember that if you have +3 flaming shock icy corrosive weapon, even if you don't get the normal damage through the DR, you still do 4d6 damage in different forms of energy.