3.5e -- What REALLY needed fixing?

[loseth]

So, 4e went with a totally new version of D&D. That left Paizo saying, 'We'll make a new version of 3.5e, but we'll only fix the parts that genuinely didn't work, while making sure the new version is still compatible with the old.' I thought, 'Cool! No obsoleted libraries!' But then when I downloaded Pathfinder, it was IMHO* 10% fixing what was broke and 90% 'fixing' what wasn't. So, that got me to thinking: what REALLY needed fixing in 3.5e (i.e. 40-70% of all non-super-hardcore gamers complained about/had trouble with/disliked it) and could be fixed without disturbing backwards compatibility.

*Just my opinion--I'm sure everybody has their own opinion on Pathfinder, but that's definitely not what I want to discuss here. I'd prefer to keep the discussion fixed on 3.5 and what really, really needed fixing.

THE UPDATED LIST OF PROBLEMS
(Apologies—I have had to use my judgment in not including ones that a) seem like pet peeves rather than widely perceived problems or b) are widely perceived problems but do not appear to be easily fixable without compromising near-perfect backwards compatibility. Let me know if you think my judgment has erred)

--Wizards having nothing to do when they've cast all their spells appropriate to the situation
--People having trouble remembering 1-2-1 (YMMV)
--Statting up NPCs, including skill points too fiddly for DMs statting up monsters/NPS (but not PCs--most players seem to like the customization)
--Grappling
--Turning
--Calculating XP from CR
--AoOs too confusing/too many instances to remember
--Too many iterative attacks, contributing (along with SR, miss chance, crit confirmation, etc.) to too much die-rolling
--Players' turns taking too long to resolve due to multiple die-rolls often being required
--CoDzilla (though only if deliberately and expertly exploited)
--Infinite summoning (A summons B summons C summons...)
--Fighters not keeping up as the party level increases
--Scry-Buff-Teleport-Fly combo repeated ad nauseum, and campaign-breaking spells/magic in general (for some this includes resurrection et al)
--Identify
--XP for crafting
--buffing etc., especially remembering which buffs/effects/modifiers are affecting whom and for how long
--useless skills (use rope, craft [baskets], etc. YMMV)
--familiars and animal companions often crappy but time-consuming if used in combat
--save or die
--suckitude of multi-class spellcasters
--HP can vary too much due to fact that they are rolled (YMMV)
--Spell prep takes too long; spell-list resource management too cumbersome
--Necessity and ubiquity of munchkin magic items (Belt of Strength +3 etc.); inclusion of lots of magic items in the CR math
--DR as a primary focus of most combats past a certain level (golf-bag syndrome)


So I ask: What else REALLY needed to be fixed (i.e. really large numbers of players had trouble with it) and could EASILY be fixed without destroying backwards compatibility.

 

[Psion]

Buffs
Iterative attacks
CoDzilla

I have a more nuanced list I can repost when I get home, but those were the biggies.

 

[Arnwyn]

For me:

Just the spells. 3.5 didn't go far enough in nerfing/ganking/name-du-jour all the spells. AFAIC, all the problems in D&D/3.5 can be traced back to magic.

Oh, and CoDzilla (mainly, though not entirely because of, wait for it, the spells).


Otherwise, though, 3.5 runs like a dream for my players and I.

 

[drothgery]

spellcaster multiclassing

 

[haakon1]

--Wizards having nothing to do when they've cast all their spells appropriate to the situation

That's a feature. It's one of the trade-offs for the most powerful class (not counting the munchkin crap like summoning druids).

--Skill points too fiddly for DMs statting up monsters/NPS (but not PCs--most players seem to like the customization)
--Grappling
--Identify
--XP for crafting
--remembering which buffs/effects/modifiers are affecting whom and for how long
--useless skills (use rope, craft [baskets], etc. YMMV)
--familiars and animal companions often crappy but time-consuming if used in combat

I definitely agree with the other stuff I've quoted. Though I like some of the useless Craft skills, for NPC's. I built a 7th level Expert (Basketweaver) once. And I'm not sure XP for crafting is not a decent trade-off. Otherwise crafting is a little too easy, I think.

 

[Derro]

My list so far is:

--Wizards having nothing to do when they've cast all their spells appropriate to the situation

In the RAW, yes, but both the GMs I play under and myself took some steps to get around this. Reserve feats and spell mastery (not the Wizard ability but more of a dedicated multi-use spell slot) addressed this nicely.

--People having trouble remembering 1-2-1 (YMMV)

Never a problem

--Skill points too fiddly for DMs statting up monsters/NPS (but not PCs--most players seem to like the customization)

Yes and no. As a GM I took to using the UA option of maximum ranks in a designated amount of skills. It was NPC building in general that was a real pain in the butt. I tend to hand wave stuff for NPCs just for the sake of getting things done expeditiously but that didn't make it much easier.

--Grappling
--AoOs too confusing/too many instances to remember

Yes and no again. Grappling could get confusing with multiple grapplers but if it was mano-e-mano or mano-e-monster it was never too much problem. AoOs were another case by case basis. Movement provokations, not an issue, other actions sometimes confusing. Combat Reflexes and multiple provokations throughout the round did sometimes get out of hand.

--Too many iterative attacks

I didn't really have an issue with this until I started to think about it after seeing the SWSE system and playing d20 Modern where base attack tended to be lower. The worst offender in this case is the two-weapon fighter. There is a particular player in one of my games whose grasp of the rules is not great. Nearly every time his ranger would go into the full attack routine we'd have to break it down for him. I can see now where this is a stumbling block for newer players. Even as an experienced player I am willing to get rid of iterative attacks for singular, more potent attacks or maybe a feat or special ability to split your attacks ala flurry of blows or the like.

--Players' turns taking too long to resolve due to multiple die-rolls often required

Yes and no. I think it's more reflective of the learning curve and knowledge of how your character works than anything else.

--CoDzilla (though only if deliberately and expertly exploited)

I'm not sure what the term means. Could someone explain please?

--Infinite summoning (A summons B summons C summons...)

Never an issue. As a GM I Rule 0ed a "summoning sickness" of sorts early in 3.0 and it stuck with everybody I played with. And unless I'm mistaken outsiders summoned by another outsider with the Summon (Su) ability couldn't use their own Summon (Su) ability for the duration of their stay. Or is that an artifact of 3.0?

--Fighters not keeping up as the party level increases

That's a build issue as opposed to a rule issue IMO. Fighters in particular need multi-classing and prestige classes to remain flavorful and interesting. I know that is a bit inflammatory of me to say since all classes should be viable throughout all there levels but seriously, if your character concept hasn't progressed past "dude in heavy armor with board and sword" by 10th level there is no amount of rule re-writes that are going to improve your play or enjoyment. Paizo's take is a little fancier but still pretty damn boring in my opinion. NPCs, sure, but players should be able to come up with something better for a character that has been running that long.

--Scry-Buff-Teleport-Fly combo repeated ad nauseum

Ugh. Once or twice, sure, if it becomes a routine then it's a GMing issue not a rules issue. Routines, by their nature, are easy to counter and ones like this should be countered with extreme prejudice.

--Identify

(shrug) It's a 1st level spell. It should be kinda crappy. Personally I've always gone the route of using Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (Arcana, History, Religion, etc.), Spellcraft and Detect Magic, consulting sages, and even Legend Lore. I think identify is just a throwback to the old days and there are much more interesting ways to find out about yr loot.

--XP for crafting

Craft points are a decent fix. I also scrawled up some rules for binding outsiders and elementals into objects to give them powers.

--remembering which buffs/effects/modifiers are affecting whom and for how long

Whoa, daddy, did you ever say it there. That is just something endemic to D&D. I don't know what to do to fix that. I just take lots of notes and pay real close attention to my bookkeeping. What else can you do?

--useless skills (use rope, craft [baskets], etc. YMMV)

I think that Paizo did a pretty good job with this, taking the 4e route, and folding skills together. I've always thought that craft needed a severe overhaul both in its presentation and implementation. d20 Modern actually did a pretty good job with its concept of craft. There were like 6 or 7 well defined categories that performed whatever job you needed them to. Kinda like Knowledge. Check out the Modern SRD for what I'm talking about.

--familiars and animal companions often crappy but time-consuming if used in combat

Never had a problem with this either way. Companions were always useful (sometimes they needed a hand with a feat or maybe a spell or magic item). Familiars just stayed out of combat. I found the real use of familiars is that they have all of the skill ranks of their master and can therefore Aid Another on just about any skill check. When I figured this out it blew my mind.

So I ask: What else REALLY needed to be fixed (i.e. really large numbers of players had trouble with it) and could EASILY be fixed without destroying backwards compatibility.

Things I don't like about 3.x:

-Reliance on magic items
-Diminishing returns on feats
-NPC construction too time consuming
-A freakin' rule for everything which devolves in rules-lawyery way too often
-Skill synergies: nice idea, poor implementation
-Rules cascading: optional rules that rely too much on modifying existing rules instead of just changing them entirely OR supplemental rules that are superior to original rules but require re-working pre-existing assumptions. That's a bit unclear I know. I'll dig up some examples if anybody cares.
-I'm sure there are more rolling around in my head but nothing springs immediately to mind.

*Just my opinion--I'm sure everybody has their own opinion on Pathfinder, but that's definitely not what I want to discuss here. I'd prefer to keep the discussion fixed on 3.5 and what really, really needed fixing.

Yes, and please don't interpret my itemizing above as disagreeing with your opinions. I'm simply conveying my experience based on what you stated some of your problems were.

 

[Voadam]

Grappling rule ambiguities.

Cleric healing dependence.

Buff/spell duration tracking.

Statting up complex opponents.

Save or Die.

I dislike:

Daily resource tracking.

spell list prep casters.

Wierd mechanical differences between natural weapons and weapons.

I generally throw in house rules for:

reserve points

Spontaneous divine casting

Save or Dieing.

Sometimes recharge magic

Level when I say so, skip xp tracking.

Going with my best interpretation on grappling

And others.

 

[Derro]

Wierd mechanical differences between natural weapons and weapons.

Can you clarify? What are you referring to specifically?

I generally throw in house rules for:

Sometimes recharge magic

I like the concept behind recharge magic but isn't it just another layer of complex bookkeeping? I've never tried it myself but I'm familiar with it by reading. It looks finicky to implement.

 

[jsaving]

Good list, here are a few more:

1) Metamagic

2) Some classes (especially druid and bard) not having a clear function

3) In-game penalties for having a particular alignment (for example, monster attacks that do more damage against Good-aligned characters, evil clerics being barred from spontaneous cures, etc)

4) "Legacy" spells like magic missile that are too strong for their current levels

5) Rolled hit points -- substantial effective ECL bonus to those who cheat or are lucky

6) Very little multiple-ability-score dependence

7) Very little use for mental stats in combat

8) Incoherent definition of lawfulness -- liking social order, telling the truth, judging those who fall short in their duties, behaving honorably, and lacking creativity aren't related to each other

9) Too few hit points for 1st level characters

10) Stackable BAB but nonstackable caster level makes multiclassing system work for melee/melee combos but not caster/caster combos

 

[blargney the second]

1) Stacking. There are way too many types.
2) Grappling and turning undead need simplification. We *always* have to go to the PHB.
3) Being prone is far too brutal.
-blarg