3 staff related questions

[apesamongus]

#1 would an item with use per day spells get the same reduction for similar abilities as a staff? For instance, a staff of charming cost full price for the charm monster ability and 3/4 price for the charm person, but would an item that had 1 use per day of charm monster and 1 use per day of charm person have the same discount? What if it were unlimited uses of each?

(#2 and #3 might not strictly be rules questions)

#2 is there a precident anywhere for a staff with use per day spells OR of any item with spells usable a number of times per day that are cast like staves (using the user's caster level)

#3 is there any precident for an item other than a long piece of wood being enchanted as a staff? What about a staff that was also enchanted as a weapon (with standard plusses, etc)?

 

[Shin Okada]

#1

No. That rule is only for staffs. And the second spell is cheap because it still use up the same charge.

Read P.288 "ADDING NEW ABILITIES". You start from an item which casts 1 Charm Monster per day. Then add 1.5 times the price of an item which casts 1 Charm Person per day.

So,

Spell Effect of Charm Monster (4th-level spell, CL 7), Command Word, 1/day
= 4 x 7 x 1,800 x (5 / 1) = 10,080 gp

Spell Effect of Charm Person (1st-level spell, CL 1), Command Word, 1/day
= 1 x 7 x 1,800 x (5 / 1) = 2,520 gp

Now your Item costs, 10,080 + (2,520 x 1.5) = 13,860 gp


#2
As far as I know, there is no rule for creating such items.

#3
According to P.243 of DMG, a staff does not need to be made of wood. But it must be pole-like (4ft -7ft). Some staves actually work as quarterstaff. Some of them even have enhancement bonuses. I don't know if it is possible to make as other type of weapons (say, club, greatclub, longstaff and such). It will be DM's call.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

#1 would an item with use per day spells get the same reduction for similar abilities as a staff?

Nope. It might, however, qualify if the ability were "2 charges per day, which can be spent on Charm Monster (2), Charm Person (1), and Eagle's Splendor (1)."

#2 is there a precident anywhere for a staff with use per day spells OR of any item with spells usable a number of times per day that are cast like staves (using the user's caster level)

None that I'm aware of.

#3 is there any precident for an item other than a long piece of wood being enchanted as a staff? What about a staff that was also enchanted as a weapon (with standard plusses, etc)?

Well ...

Physical Description: A typical staff is 4 feet to 7 feet long and 2 inches to 3 inches thick, weighing about 5 pounds. Most staffs are wood, but a rare few are bone, metal, or even glass. (These are extremely exotic.) Staffs often have a gem or some device at their tip or are shod in metal at one or both ends. Staffs are often decorated with carvings or runes. A typical staff is like a walking stick, quarterstaff, or cudgel. It has AC 7, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 24.

So, you could certainly make a club that acted like a staff, and as for staves that are also weapons:

The wielder of a staff of power gains a +2 luck bonus to AC and saving throws. The staff is also a +2 quarterstaff, and its wielder may use it to smite opponents. If 1 charge is expended (as a free action), the staff causes double damage (x3 on a critical hit) for 1 round.

 

[Thanee]

There are a few items, which have a "cost reduction" similar but not equal to what the staff's get, that is a cost reduction for related abilities or abilities that cannot be used at the same time, but there is no general rule for that.

An example would be the skill items from Complete Adventurer.

The "staff properties" (mainly using one's own caster level and feats) are not available otherwise, at least AFAIK.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Krafen]

#1 would an item with use per day spells get the same reduction for similar abilities as a staff? For instance, a staff of charming cost full price for the charm monster ability and 3/4 price for the charm person, but would an item that had 1 use per day of charm monster and 1 use per day of charm person have the same discount? What if it were unlimited uses of each?
*snip*

It sounds to me like you are describing a wondrous item that happens to be shaped like a staff.

 

[apesamongus]

It sounds to me like you are describing a wondrous item that happens to be shaped like a staff.

I don't really care what it's shaped like. There's just the section on pricing items that says...

"Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities."

Now, there is nothing in that description that states that this discount is limited only to staves or charged items, but there is also nothing that clarifies exactly what it does apply to - and doing some reverse engineering of prices, the only things I can find are staves.

To complicate things, The Rules of the Game says this...

"Multiple Similar Abilities Versus Multiple Different Abilities: An item with multiple similar abilities costs much less than an item with multiple different abilities, so what's the difference? In this case, "similar" abilities are functions that draw from the same pool of charges, or that can't be used at the same time (or at least don't provide a great deal of extra benefit if they are used together), or all of the above. Sometimes, an item has powers that receive this similar abilities price reduction when the item's multiple powers work together to produce an overall effect, or when an item's powers must be activated separately, but that's fairly rare."

Well, apart from offering a really bizarre definition of the word "similar", this doesn't really help clarify things. For instance, "or that can't be used at the same time (or at least don't provide a great deal of extra benefit if they are used together)" is helplessly vague. I would say that an item that allowed you to fly and breate water at the same time (for example) certainly qualifies as not providing a great deal of extra benefit when used together. But then, the ability to cast both fireball and flamestrike once per day would qualify as well, under the "can't be used at the same time" clause. Pretty much any two charges per day spells would qualify as not being usable at the same time - unless there is some subtlity behind "can't be used at the same time" that I'm not getting.

 

[Sithobi1]

Pretty much any instantaneous spell, but what about long lasting buffs? Those, if they stacked, would probably count as different.

 

[apesamongus]

Pretty much any instantaneous spell, but what about long lasting buffs? Those, if they stacked, would probably count as different.

Yea, I thought of that as well. Mage Armor and Shield do give additional benefit when used together. Enlarge and Reduce, not so much.

Then, there's the question of things that are additional powers that get neither the 150% or the 75% modifier on official items. A good example of that are weapons/armor that let you cast a spell once a day. Sure, you could say that those were just priced ad-hoc, but all I have seen follow the formula of just adding the base costs of each ability with no modifiers. I mean, +3 sword(equivalent) + Scorching Ray are multiple abilities, but the cost doesn't have either the multiple ability penalty or the similar ability discount.

 

[azmodean]

Staffs basically use their own rules for pricing, and those rules are never spelled out. IIRC, the base price is the price for the highest-level spell the staff can cast (spell levelxstaff caster levelx750) divided by the number of charges it takes to cast that spell. Each lower-level spell you add increases the price by a similar amount, except with a 25% reduction in cost (that is, spell levelxstaff caster levelx750x0.75) and also divided by the number of charges it takes to cast the highest level spell.

Alternatively you could just price it as a bunch of wands with the caster levels all being the same and the lower level wands with a 25% discount, and then divide the whole price by number of charges it takes to cast the highest level spell.

This is all theory, but it worked out for every staff I checked it against.

You set the number of spell levels/charge and apply it to all of the spells

for instance a fireball/magic missile/scorching ray staff

1 spell level/charge:
fireball takes 3 charges to activate, magic missile takes 1, and scorching ray takes two.
2 spell levels/charge:
fireball takes 2, magic missile takes 1, scorching ray takes 1.
3 spell levels/charge
all three powers take one charge per, but you're "wasting" a lot of power on the lower level spells.