D&D 3E/3.5 3E and the Feel of D&D

For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, the big picture was to return the game to its roots, reversing the direction that 2nd Edition had taken in making the game more generic. The plan was to strongly support the idea that the characters were D&D characters in a D&D world. We emphasized adventuring and in particular dungeoneering, both with the rules and with the adventure path modules. We...
For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, the big picture was to return the game to its roots, reversing the direction that 2nd Edition had taken in making the game more generic. The plan was to strongly support the idea that the characters were D&D characters in a D&D world. We emphasized adventuring and in particular dungeoneering, both with the rules and with the adventure path modules. We intentionally brought players back to a shared experience after 2E had sent them off in different directions.

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To keep the focus on adventuring, we eliminated several elements from 2E that, we thought, tended to take players off course. In particular, we removed evil PCs, individual XP awards, strongholds, and the class name “thief.”

Thieves were renamed “rogues” to take the emphasis off of them going off on their own to steal random items from NPCs. Doing so usually amounted to stealing spotlight time and the DM’s attention away from the other players. If thieves stole from other PCs in order to be “in character,” that was even worse.

Starting in original D&D, top-level fighters and clerics could build strongholds, and we dropped that. If you have had fun playing your character as an adventurer for level after level, why would you suddenly want to take on non-adventuring duties at 9th level? These strongholds were styled as benefits, so if you didn’t start one, you were losing a bonus that you’d apparently earned. Running a stronghold was also an individual activity, not something a party did. Worse, if players wanted their characters to run strongholds for fun, why force them to adventure until they reached 9th level first? In my personal 3E campaign, I gave the party the option to rule from a fort on the frontier when the characters were 6th level, and they took it. It was a project that they undertook as a party, like the rest of their adventuring careers.

We got rid of individual XP awards, which rewarded different classes for doing different things. Fighters got bonus experience for killing monsters, for example, and thieves got experience for stealing things. It looked good on paper, but it rewarded characters for pursuing different goals. We were trying to get players to pursue the same goals, especially those that involved kicking open doors and fighting what was on the other side.

Evil characters in D&D can be traced back to Chainmail, a miniatures game in which playing an evil army was routine. Having good and evil characters together in a party led to problems and sometimes hard feelings. In a lunchtime 2E campaign at Wizards, an evil character sold fake magic items to other characters; the players who got scammed were not amused. During a playtest of 3E, one of the designers secretly created an evil character who, at the end of the session, turned on the rest of us. It was a test of sorts, and the result of the test was that evil characters didn’t make the experience better. 3E established the expectation that PCs would be neutral or good, one of the rare instances of us narrowing the players’ options instead of expanding them.

Personally, one part of the process I enjoyed was describing the world of D&D in its own terms, rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. When writing roleplaying games, I enjoy helping the player get immersed in the setting, and I always found these references to the real world to be distractions. In the Player’s Handbook, the text and art focused the readers’ imaginations on the D&D experiences, starting with an in-world paragraph to introduce each chapter.

In 2nd Ed, the rules referred to history and to historical legends to describe the game, such as referring to Merlin to explain what a wizard was or to Hiawatha as an archetype for a fighter. But by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source. For example, 2E took monks out of the Player’s Handbook, in part because martial artist monks have no real place in medieval fantasy. We put them back in because monks sure have a place in D&D fantasy. The same goes for gnomes. The 3E gnome is there because the gnome was well-established in D&D lore, not in order to represent real-world mythology.

We also emphasized adventuring by creating a standard or “iconic” adventurer for each class. In the rule examples, in the illustrations, and in the in-world prose, we referred to these adventurers, especially Tordek (dwarf fighter), Mialee (elf wizard), Jozan (human cleric), and Lidda (halfling rogue). While AD&D used proper names to identify supremely powerful wizards, such as Bigby of the spell Bigby’s crushing hand, we used proper names to keep the attention on adventurers, even down to a typical 1st-level fighter.

For the art in 3E, we took pains to have it seem to illustrate not fantasy characters in general but D&D adventurers in particular. For one thing, lots of them wore backpacks. For the iconic characters, we wrote up the sort of gear that a 1st-level character might start with, and the illustrations showed them with that gear. The illustrations in the 2E Player’s Handbook feature lots of human fighters, human wizards, and castles. Those images reflect standard fantasy tropes, while the art in 3E reflects what you see in your mind’s eye when you play D&D.

Descriptions of weapons in 2E referred to historical precedents, such as whether a weapon was use in the European Renaissance or in Egypt. With almost 20 different polearms, the weapon list reflected soldiers on a medieval battlefield more than a heterogenous party of adventurers delving into a dungeon. We dropped the historical references, such as the Lucerne hammer, and gave dwarves the dwarven warax. And if the dwarven warax isn’t cool enough, how would you like a double sword or maybe a spiked chain?

The gods in 2E were generic, such as the god of strength. We pulled in the Greyhawk deities so we could use proper names and specific holy symbols that were part of the D&D heritage. We knew that plenty of Dungeon Masters would create their own worlds and deities, as I did for my home campaign, but the Greyhawk deities made the game feel more connected to its own roots. They also helped us give players a unified starting point, which was part of Ryan Dancey’s plan to bring the D&D audience back to a shared experience.

Fans were enthusiastic about the way 3E validated adventuring, the core experience that D&D does best and that appeals most broadly. We were fortunate that by 2000 D&D had such a strong legacy that it could stand on its own without reference to Earth history or mythology. One reason that fans were willing to accept sweeping changes to the rules was that 3E felt more like D&D than 2nd Edition had. Sometimes I wonder what 4E could have accomplished if it had likewise tried to reinforce the D&D experience rather than trying to redesign it.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Oofta

Legend
I really don't understand the issue with THAC0. It's basic math. THAC0= 16. Foe is AC4, 16-4 is 12, roll a 12 or better, Big whoop. Figure it out for each melee and missile weapon., out I on your character sheet, never worry about it again.WAY better than O/BX/A D&D charts.

It's easier and faster than totaling up D6' for a fireball, or WEG SW or T&T, or sorting through counting successes in Dice Pool games.

I prefer modern ascending AC, but THAC0 is a non issue when it comes to problematic/time consuming rules or mechanics in older editions or modern ones like turning undead in 5e or figuring out round to round bonus' and penalties or durations in 3/4E
Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean others don't, and no it doesn't have anything to do with calculators. Back in the day I knew people who, while otherwise quite intelligent had a hard time with keeping it straight.

There was no reason for the added complexity even if it was just "math" for you.
 

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Schmoe

Adventurer
I really don't understand the issue with THAC0. It's basic math. THAC0= 16. Foe is AC4, 16-4 is 12, roll a 12 or better, Big whoop. Figure it out for each melee and missile weapon., out I on your character sheet, never worry about it again.WAY better than O/BX/A D&D charts.

It's easier and faster than totaling up D6' for a fireball, or WEG SW or T&T, or sorting through counting successes in Dice Pool games.

I prefer modern ascending AC, but THAC0 is a non issue when it comes to problematic/time consuming rules or mechanics in older editions or modern ones like turning undead in 5e or figuring out round to round bonus' and penalties or durations in 3/4E

Count me as another person who is confused about the general disdain for THACO. It seemed reasonable and was pretty easy to both remember and apply for me. But hey, to each their own.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Count me as another person who is confused about the general disdain for THACO. It seemed reasonable and was pretty easy to both remember and apply for me. But hey, to each their own.
Well, it's easier to just add the AC on the roll
 

JeffB

Legend
Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean others don't, and no it doesn't have anything to do with calculators. Back in the day I knew people who, while otherwise quite intelligent had a hard time with keeping it straight.

There was no reason for the added complexity even if it was just "math" for you.

What is addition and subtraction? It's math,.

Sure, not everybody adds or subtracts at the same speed. I'm no genius but I don't consider adding or subtracting small numbers complexity that "quite intelligent" people should have an issue with or having a "hard time keeping straight". It's basic math we are all taught in grade school here in the states. Sounds to me like the process wasn't explained very well (or at all) to those players or the read the rulebook-neither of which is the game's fault.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons,...SNIP THE WHOLE THING...

Thank you for pointing out virtually EVERYTHING that I hated about 3e! :) Hopefully this thread gets stickied so if/when I'm asked "What do you have against 3e?", I can just point them here.

I'm not kidding though...virtually everything that was listed as 'reasons' was something I either wasn't keen on or outright found anathema to my preferred "flavour of how a D&D game should run and how a D&D campaign should evolve". Now, just to be clear, I wasn't a huge fan of 2e either...we played it for a few years (somewhere between 2 and 3'ish; not solid after about the 2 year mark). Even when we DID play 2e, there were a lot of 1e things we just preferred...so, like many others, we ran a 'hybrid' 2e game. Not the other way around though. When we played 1e and when we went back to it, it as 1e almost entirely.

This just goes to show you...different strokes for different folks! ;) I'm glad 3e found a market (really, I am), I'm just disappointed in how it completely fractured the "older players from the newborns". Just look back at any forums or usenet's and see the strife and vitriol betwen the 1e/2e players and the 3e ones! I think Johnathan here is seeing 3e through rose-coloured-glasses...it all seems wonderful and totally what 'everyone wanted' because it was what he wanted and enjoyed. Just like I have no delusions that when I look back at my 1e/Hackmaster/BECMI games I see then as superior to people's who played 3.x, Pathfinder, 4e and even 5e.

Anyway. Thanks again for the write up! It will be useful, that's for sure! ;)

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
Hiya!



Thank you for pointing out virtually EVERYTHING that I hated about 3e! :) Hopefully this thread gets stickied so if/when I'm asked "What do you have against 3e?", I can just point them here.

I'm not kidding though...virtually everything that was listed as 'reasons' was something I either wasn't keen on or outright found anathema to my preferred "flavour of how a D&D game should run and how a D&D campaign should evolve". Now, just to be clear, I wasn't a huge fan of 2e either...we played it for a few years (somewhere between 2 and 3'ish; not solid after about the 2 year mark). Even when we DID play 2e, there were a lot of 1e things we just preferred...so, like many others, we ran a 'hybrid' 2e game. Not the other way around though. When we played 1e and when we went back to it, it as 1e almost entirely.

This just goes to show you...different strokes for different folks! ;) I'm glad 3e found a market (really, I am), I'm just disappointed in how it completely fractured the "older players from the newborns". Just look back at any forums or usenet's and see the strife and vitriol betwen the 1e/2e players and the 3e ones! I think Johnathan here is seeing 3e through rose-coloured-glasses...it all seems wonderful and totally what 'everyone wanted' because it was what he wanted and enjoyed. Just like I have no delusions that when I look back at my 1e/Hackmaster/BECMI games I see then as superior to people's who played 3.x, Pathfinder, 4e and even 5e.

Anyway. Thanks again for the write up! It will be useful, that's for sure! ;)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

the people still playing those editions aren’t seeing them through rose colored lenses for the simple fact that they are still playing it and playing it well.
 

Oofta

Legend
What is addition and subtraction? It's math,.

Sure, not everybody adds or subtracts at the same speed. I'm no genius but I don't consider adding or subtracting small numbers complexity that "quite intelligent" people should have an issue with or having a "hard time keeping straight". It's basic math we are all taught in grade school here in the states. Sounds to me like the process wasn't explained very well (or at all) to those players or the read the rulebook-neither of which is the game's fault.
Again, just because you don't have an issue*, doesn't mean others did not. It has nothing to do with "explaining", many people simply find addition and comparing two positive numbers easier.

But yes, it was the fault of the rules. Sometimes you wanted a low roll. Sometimes you wanted high. Sometimes you wanted above a target number other times you wanted below.

The only reason to keep it was nostalgia.

*For that matter, neither do I.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

Well, it's easier to just add the AC on the roll

Ok then...just roll your to hit and add the AC of the opponent; if it's 20+, you hit. Same thing. In fact, the OSR BECMI clone "Dark Dungeons" uses this method. You roll a d20, and get a 14. Lets say you have +3 to hit. If you don't know the AC and the DM doesn't want to tell you, you just announce "17". The DM adds the monsters AC to that; if it's 20+, the DM describes the hit. It's basically "THAC0" but in 'reverse'. You don't need to subtract your total from your THAC0 then.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

JeffB

Legend
find addition and comparing two positive numbers easier.

No doubt it's easier. I prefer it as well.

Sometimes you wanted a low roll. Sometimes you wanted high. Sometimes you wanted above a target number other times you wanted below.

Agreed, this is complication that should have been ironed out from 2E*

The only reason to keep it was nostalgia

*Actually it was all about backwards compatibility with the prior edition. they did not want to alienate the 1E/BECMI fans.
 

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