3e Character Advancement Too Fast?

[WizarDru]

(4 years -> 19th level)
~228 sessions for 20th

Redesigning the levelling system so that players can make 20th in a year seems to me to be a mistake, sort of removing some of the mystique and challenge from the game. It's almost like WotC wanted to bring the pen-and-paper game closer to the computer style of play where you can bring up

Actually, it looks like WotC thought about the average group, the average amount of time they game and did some calculations. Maybe when you're in college full-time, you can afford 8 hour weekly sessions or 2-3 sessions a week. My group can't.

The Meepites and I meet roughly every week, currently. However, we have vacations, work-travel, children, holidays and full-time work schedules to deal with. Add in time for socializing, and you'll see, some groups like the pace of advancement. There's nothing wrong with your system, but I'd have to majorly restructure to accomadate your slow-as-molasses system. Like I mentioned above, my group has taken over 2.5 years to make 20th.

There also seems to be an assumption that no player would die, which would interrupt the cycle of advancement. Given the prevalence of Save-or-Die spells in D&D, that seems somewhat optimistic. Prior to 3E, I had only had two PC deaths in 20 years. In the last two years, I've had five....from a very cautious group. Only one character hasn't died out of six. If you want to factor advancement overall, you should add that to the equation, as well.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I prefer the high level game to the low level game, so I voted just right. I like speeding my way through the low levels, developing the character in mid levels, and coming up with world threatening plots in the high level game. I think the 3rd edition experience system is the best to date.

 

[molonel]

Amen to that

"Maybe when you're in college full-time, you can afford 8 hour weekly sessions or 2-3 sessions a week. My group can't."

Amen to that.

"There's nothing wrong with your system, but I'd have to majorly restructure to accomadate your slow-as-molasses system. Like I mentioned above, my group has taken over 2.5 years to make 20th."

And for what purpose? None that I can see.

 

[Zerakon]

Actually, it looks like WotC thought about the average group, the average amount of time they game and did some calculations. Maybe when you're in college full-time, you can afford 8 hour weekly sessions or 2-3 sessions a week. My group can't.

I'm 11 years out of college and we're playing about once per week now. So if we switch to something like my slow-as-molasses system, I don't envision our PCs EVER reaching level 14+. But, that's just me. I think the D&D game as a system breaks down at high-level play, meaning it's not as fun. But that's just my opinion.

And I do still think that making fast progression the "standard" is a mistake. I would have preferred a slow progression as standard and noting something like: "If you want faster progression and want to play with high-level characters within a year, feel free to double or triple XP rewards so that your characters progress much faster than the standard." Or replace "standard" with "official." For example, does the RPGA use 3rd edition XP rules as written or do they modify it?

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[WizarDru]

I think the D&D game as a system breaks down at high-level play, meaning it's not as fun. But that's just my opinion.

The RPGA uses standard rules for XP, as far as I know...but given the relative lack of frequency for advancement in the RPGA, combined with the low magic and higher lethality, it all balances. There are few characters in Living Greyhawk with levels in the double digits.

As far as your system goes, you just qualified it sufficiently for me. You don't actually want the group to advance too far. A valid choice, but not the norm, I think you'll agree.

Why make 20 levels if you don't ever intend to let your players attain them? High-level play, IME, doesn't so much 'break down' as differs from low-level play. Many people don't enjoy that style of play, and understandibly so. However, I think folks like Piratecat and Sepulchrave would argue that the game focus changes, and the nature of the challenges shifts with it.

There are aspects of high-level play I don't enjoy as much, but there are aspect I enjoy more than before. There's no point in having powers available for players, if you don't let them use them, IMHO. At 1st level, casting a magic missle is fun. At 20th level, it's Meteor Swarm. That bothers some folks sense of verisimilitude, but me, I like having wizards who cast Maximized, Empowered Sonically-Admixtured Fireballs....but that's just me.

 

[molonel]

"I'm 11 years out of college and we're playing about once per week now. So if we switch to something like my slow-as-molasses system, I don't envision our PCs EVER reaching level 14+. But, that's just me. I think the D&D game as a system breaks down at high-level play, meaning it's not as fun. But that's just my opinion."

See, that's just the point, though. Why make a system that is designed to allow play up to 20 levels, and release the Epic Level Handbook that explains how to play levels 21+, and then design the DEFAULT xp system in such a way that no one will ever reach those levels?

D&D does not break down at high levels. It simply requires more prep time for the DM. You can't flip open the MM and run an encounter straight out of the book, anymore. A 1st level character will die if you throw enough kobolds at him. They are fragile, and you actually have to work sometimes to actually keep your PCs alive.

Also, I think one major problem people have with high level games is that they MUST limit the sources their players can draw from. You just cannot swing open the door and say, "Use whatever you want!" Our DM limits us to the Core rulebooks, the splat books (not all, and not without qualifications). No Forgotten Realms, no Quintessential books, no Oriental Adventures.

We're at 18th level right now, and I love it! It is simply the most amazing game I'm ever played. I don't understand why people paddle around in the shallows and never play beyond 8th-10th level.

 

[Arnwyn]

For those people who think the advancement is too fast...

1) do you feel the "designed" advancement of one level every 3-4 sessions, or 13.3 encounters is too fast?

Yup, that one.

 

[drothgery]

Actually, it looks like WotC thought about the average group, the average amount of time they game and did some calculations. Maybe when you're in college full-time, you can afford 8 hour weekly sessions or 2-3 sessions a week. My group can't.

The Meepites and I meet roughly every week, currently. However, we have vacations, work-travel, children, holidays and full-time work schedules to deal with. Add in time for socializing, and you'll see, some groups like the pace of advancement. There's nothing wrong with your system, but I'd have to majorly restructure to accomadate your slow-as-molasses system. Like I mentioned above, my group has taken over 2.5 years to make 20th.

Amen to that.

I mean, even if you play every week (and that means no holidays, no vacations, the DM's never sick, etc.), and advance at the standard 3e rate, it'll still take more than a year to reach twentieth level. In 2e, advancing beyond tenth level usually requires the DM to throw out the XP tables; by the book advancement will take forever.

What's the point of having rules for high-level characters if you can't use them? I mean, 2e broke down horribly at high levels, but 3e is pretty much okay all the way up to 20.

 

[Iced Tea]

I have to agree with WizrDru amd drothgery. my party, essentially my brother and i, have finally reached 14th level, which is a very big accomplishment for us. Usually we would keep restarting in low levels and never make it past gaining a level or two. All of us hated the low levels cause we couldn't do anything. As for character developement: when you keep a strict track of gametime and dont take time off inbetween adventures, there isnt a lot of time for character developement in a month or two. however if you use a .5 multiplier, then you probably take a lot of time for roleplaying (our group often has a time limit to do stuff, and tiem take off is used for creating magice items, and most recently, calling a meeting between us and other leaders in the area).

Now that i have finally reached 13th level (after about a year and a half gametime and probably a lot longer real time), as a wizard, I love exploring all of the new and cool things that i do and spells i can cast. It also took a lotlonger because i died at only 3k from 13 level and got booted back down to halfway through 11 level. but my complaints about raise dead are for another thread. My party has also had one or 2 tpks because of very unfortunate circumstances, but somehow our cohorts always come out alive.

Anyway, i dont understand why people like to drudge around at low levels when a character can do so much more at double digit levels. Not only can you do more, but your dm can also become extra creative when creating encounters for your party as well as your party coming up with some very creative solutions. A for example, i was cursed by a trap set by an abolith while i was polymorphed and searchign its lair and didnt make it back intime for my brother(playing a paladin) to remove it). so basically i was screwed because we were in the middle of a very important adventure. my solution, i cast polymoprh 2-3 times a day, that way i wasnt affected by the curse. yes it does take some of the bite out od the curse, but it just shows how versitile higher level characters are(and polymorph until 3.5).

And yet, an example of why low levels can suck. when my brother were playing with the same characters but at a low level, we came across a trap that blinded my brothers paladin. when you are second level with no way to cure it, it takes all of the fun out of it. however we found a stash of potions of CL wounds and a wand of mm level 1 so we were able to stumble our way unil we found a imprisoned cleric (after completing an 8th of the hideout {basically a raiders outpost})

and i will leave off saying that if my dm (also my brother) used a .5 multiplier, we would still be doing the very beginning of the campaign we are working on at the moment. and my group, even though the main members all live together or within a 4 block radius dont even get together once a week at the moment. and it also becoems a real pain when my brothers go off to college and im stuck at home. one of the tiems that we were actually committed to play we managed around 20-25 hours of gametime during the schoolweek (poorme still in highschool) before they left off to college.

 

[Iced Tea]

13th level not 14th