D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Sorceror

The bolded part makes me wonder if the larger die size makes up for the fact that you now have a lower chance of rolling the max on each die and, therefore, rolling again. On a d6, you have a 16.7% chance of rolling a 6 on each die, but on a d8, you only have a 12.5% chance of rolling an 8. I'm no mathematician, so I wonder if the extra +1 average damage per die makes up for the lower chance of "exploding" on your roll.
Average exploded value of a d6 is 4.2. Average exploded value of a d8 is 5.14.

For 1d6, you have a 11% chance of getting a 9 or better. For 1d8, you have an 11% chance of getting a 10 or better.

For 2d6, you have a 10% chance of getting a 15 or better. For 2d8, you have a 10% chance of getting a 18 or better.

So it will be better on average, and in the general upper bounds.

The upper limits of each set are largely insignificant. Even the cap on the number of dice that can explode is barely noticeable compared to unlimited explosions on all dice.

Aside: That's why I'd suggest getting rid of the reroll cap. It has almost no statistical relevance, and it seems like more of a hassle to have to constantly track how many dice you've rerolled (especially if you're also using Empower, and you have to track how many of those dice you rerolled as well) than to worry that someone somewhere might get a super explosion chain.
 

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A more balanced, less rage-inducing (on reddit at least, I think the feature is fine IMO) 18th level feature for Sorcerers would be that they don't need any components for their spells anymore, period. THey are so overwhelmingly magical now that their bodies have become the the only component they need.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Sure, but balance has always been at the DM's mercy.

So, if it is a balance factor at the mercy of the DM... where does it tell the DM that this is a balance factor to consider? It certainly isn't in the spell creation rules. I checked there.

Its an investment, which people do feel accomplishment from by just taking the investment itself.

The character is an investment. The character's tchotchkes are not an investment.

I haven't abandoned anything. I still think its a balancing factor.

If a player feels like they don't want to have a dead-weight spell, they can always wait until after they've gotten the component before adding the spell to their list. That's something obvious that comes up when you actually talk to your players.

And I really can't stand it as a player when a DM is so afraid of inconveniencing me that they skip over game mechanics and interesting things just because it might make me a little sad. The DM doesn't need to coddle players like they can't understand how long-term goals work. And the players don't need the DM to ignore perfectly legitimate hooks just because they're afraid for the players.

Right, I just finished a game that ran for, about, 6 months. The players got to level 5, (club game). The entire campaign happened in two weeks of game time, with a week of downtime being half of that time.

What sort of long-term goals should the players have had?

Maybe I should go for a game that lasted longer though. Had one that lasted three years. We covered almost nine months of time in the story. I know because my character was working for a monument to the inciting incident of the campaign. So, at what point should I have begun the year long process of long-term planning for a spell that I never reached high enough level to use?

This isn't about being scared of inconveniencing the players. This is about narrative weight and impacts. Whether or not you have the item isn't interesting, it carries no weight. But in terms of the game, it can basically mean that the spell is banned because of the structure of the narrative.

And my characters and me are perfectly capable of long-term planning that will never pay off in the story. I just don't want to tie mechanical weight to that, because there is no need to soft-ban these spells. If I don't want them in the game, I'll hard-ban them and tell my players.

If you sit down with the players like adults and say "hey, if you want to shapechange, you'll need to go on a quest. If you don't want to, that's fine. There's plenty of other spells you can choose."

"But what about the Duke's Evil ritual?"

"Well, if you want to stop him, you won't be able to go on this quest."

"Why is that the choice you are giving me? Between my class abilities, and the story?"

"Because realism. You're an adult right? Can't you handle long-term planning?"

And your players won't crumble like wet noodles because they can understand how games and adventures work. Its honestly disrespectful that DM's think they constantly have to baby their players or else the players will die. If your games are so boring and one-note that a side-quest threatens the fun, then the game wasn't in great form to begin with.

You don't see people crying about side-quests in skyrim or oblivion because they understand that it will make them more powerful.

But it DOESN'T make them more powerful. And seriously, wanting to pursue the main quest isn't boring and one-note. You don't see side-quests happen in the VAST majority of media, because the characters are focused on the objective. You actually DO see people mocking Skyrim for the fact that you can go off and ignore the main quest and turnip farm and end up coming back to the exact same situation.

And I'm not saying I keep players on a constant treadmill of a game, but we don't HAVE years of downtime. We have days. This is all style, which means it isn't balance.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I didn't say all cantrips are worthless. I'm saying they're scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of damage.

And I don't have all the books on me, but I'm almost certain every Ranger's subclass gives them an at-will bump to damage.

So, we are going to add class features?

Cool. So the Ranger does 3d8+10 = 23.5.

The caster who adds mod to damage does 4d10+20 = 42 damage with Eldritch Blast and 4d10+5 = 27 with Fire Bolt.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
So, if WotC does go more heavily in on resistances in the next iteration of the Monster Manual, would that sufficiently increase the value of Sorcerous Burst? If something like 1/3 of the monsters you encounter are resistant to whatever single-element cantrip you have, are you better off with a cantrip which you can always tune to be unresisted, even if it's nominal average is lower?

Generally cantrips have damage tiers of:
  • 1d10: Full damage, no riders
  • 1d8: A minor rider, such as the slow effect of Ray of Frost
  • 1d6: A major rider, such as the disadvantage of Frostbite
  • -1 die tier for non-arcane spells, such as Vicious Mockery
The exploding dice effect means Sorcerous Burst is higher than a standard d6, but a bit below a standard d8. Do you think they anticipate that damage resistances are going to be significant enough that it puts the benefit of changing up the damage type at about the tier of a minor rider, or a bit more?

I think they are just overestimating the value of variable damage type. I don't expect them to change it much at all. We've seen the same with Chromatic orb after all.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
So, if it is a balance factor at the mercy of the DM... where does it tell the DM that this is a balance factor to consider? It certainly isn't in the spell creation rules. I checked there.
In the DMG, it calls out the material component of Plane Shift to be "an important limitation" where "even the act of researching the correct specification can lead to adventure." So it is indeed an intended limitation for at least a few spells.

The character is an investment. The character's tchotchkes are not an investment.
Not everyone sees things the same way as you.
Right, I just finished a game that ran for, about, 6 months. The players got to level 5, (club game). The entire campaign happened in two weeks of game time, with a week of downtime being half of that time.

What sort of long-term goals should the players have had?

Maybe I should go for a game that lasted longer though. Had one that lasted three years. We covered almost nine months of time in the story. I know because my character was working for a monument to the inciting incident of the campaign. So, at what point should I have begun the year long process of long-term planning for a spell that I never reached high enough level to use?

This isn't about being scared of inconveniencing the players. This is about narrative weight and impacts. Whether or not you have the item isn't interesting, it carries no weight. But in terms of the game, it can basically mean that the spell is banned because of the structure of the narrative.

And my characters and me are perfectly capable of long-term planning that will never pay off in the story. I just don't want to tie mechanical weight to that, because there is no need to soft-ban these spells. If I don't want them in the game, I'll hard-ban them and tell my players.
You can tell players how long you plan on running a campaign as part of their informed decision process. Its not like I'm advocating to have players choose their favorite 9th-level spells when we're ending the campaign at level 5. The implication is that the spell isn't banned, its something to aspire to and acquire. Just like a magic item. Just like scrolls and spellbooks.
"But what about the Duke's Evil ritual?"

"Well, if you want to stop him, you won't be able to go on this quest."

"Why is that the choice you are giving me? Between my class abilities, and the story?"

"Because realism. You're an adult right? Can't you handle long-term planning?"
Is it just too devastating for your players to hear "You probably don't have time to do both." Again, I assume the players won't throw a hissy-fit being told "not now."
But it DOESN'T make them more powerful. And seriously, wanting to pursue the main quest isn't boring and one-note. You don't see side-quests happen in the VAST majority of media, because the characters are focused on the objective. You actually DO see people mocking Skyrim for the fact that you can go off and ignore the main quest and turnip farm and end up coming back to the exact same situation.

And I'm not saying I keep players on a constant treadmill of a game, but we don't HAVE years of downtime. We have days. This is all style, which means it isn't balance.
There's guidance in the DMG about how downtime passes:

"As the party gains levels, you can add more downtime between adventures to give characters the time they need to pursue such interests [to undertake more projects that require more time between adventures]. Whereas days or weeks might pass between low-level adventures, the amount of downtime between higher-level adventures might be measured in months or years."

So its supported in the base game and, uh, side-quests are a constant thing in all media especially the type where "we need to get stronger before we face the threat."
So, we are going to add class features?

Cool. So the Ranger does 3d8+10 = 23.5.

The caster who adds mod to damage does 4d10+20 = 42 damage with Eldritch Blast and 4d10+5 = 27 with Fire Bolt.
Uh, we were always adding class features. Remember extra attack is a class feature?

Btw, how'd you suppose the caster was able to add their mod to EB? It's almost like the point I made was that EB was very good when you enhance it with class features but as an isolated ranged attack, it's far behind the better at-will options.
 

Stalker0

Legend
A more balanced, less rage-inducing (on reddit at least, I think the feature is fine IMO) 18th level feature for Sorcerers would be that they don't need any components for their spells anymore, period. THey are so overwhelmingly magical now that their bodies have become the the only component they need.
I still don't understand why Sorcerers aren't given the ability to ignore non-costly material components outright (like period, not with metamgic). It makes no damn sense that this being of magic has to find bat guano to power his spell.

I mean hell at that point you have to question how sorcs even figured out their magic? Do they wake up one day with some weird craving for the guano?

Its a simple ability:

The Magic Within: You count as automatically having an arcane focus when casting spells using sorceror slots.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Part of my feeling is that if the Sorcerer has a list of sorcerer autospells it sshould be

Cartrip: Sorcerous Burst but starts with 2d4
1st: Sorcery Ball (DBZ Yamcha Spirit ball that you can control and whack people with)
2nd: Ensorcell (A Sorcerer Charm/Calm/Fear spell)
3rd: Sorcerous Vitality (Self Heal)
4th :Arcane Erruption (Nuke)
5th: Sorcery Incarnate (Power up)

The main one is Ensorcell

To me, the secondary iconic role ofthe sorcerer is the charmer. They are a Cha class. Not a bard who is a face, the sorcerer would openly and blatantly make you see them the way they want. The sorcerer makes the orc chaging at her stop suddenly in fear or run right past due to pure apathy. Then the orc turn around and cleaves his ally.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I still don't understand why Sorcerers aren't given the ability to ignore non-costly material components outright (like period, not with metamgic). It makes no damn sense that this being of magic has to find bat guano to power his spell.

I mean hell at that point you have to question how sorcs even figured out their magic? Do they wake up one day with some weird craving for the guano?

Its a simple ability:

The Magic Within: You count as automatically having an arcane focus when casting spells using sorceror slots.
I’d word it: You are your arcane focus.

Explanatory text if needed, I guess.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Part of my feeling is that if the Sorcerer has a list of sorcerer autospells it sshould be

Cartrip: Sorcerous Burst but starts with 2d4
1st: Sorcery Ball (DBZ Yamcha Spirit ball that you can control and whack people with)
2nd: Ensorcell (A Sorcerer Charm/Calm/Fear spell)
3rd: Sorcerous Vitality (Self Heal)
4th :Arcane Erruption (Nuke)
5th: Sorcery Incarnate (Power up)

The main one is Ensorcell

To me, the secondary iconic role ofthe sorcerer is the charmer. They are a Cha class. Not a bard who is a face, the sorcerer would openly and blatantly make you see them the way they want. The sorcerer makes the orc chaging at her stop suddenly in fear or run right past due to pure apathy. Then the orc turn around and cleaves his ally.

Hmmm... I'm not sold on Ensorcell.

I actually think a better implementation of something like that is what I did with giving new uses for sorcery points (i also used spell point and combined the pools, FYI). Allow them to spend 1 pt to get advantage on social checks. Then if you want to be an enchanter, there are plenty of low-level enchantment spells which can be used and only really need rebalanced to be useful. I mean, conceptually, with Charm Person, Cause Fear, and Calm Emotions you have the gamut pretty well covered. They just need rebalanced mechanically.
 

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