D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Sorceror

[Remathilis]

I don't know...

If a player took Magic Initiate Eldritch Blast, I'd be more inclined to agree. But typically I see it being dipped into for two levels because Agonizing Blast turns it from okay to extremely good.

Depends how much you want to commit to the cause. EB even without Agonizing is still a strong cantrip for several reasons. Its Force damage (rarely resisted), it delivers each d10 separately (allowing for better spreading of damage, or better chances to crit). You can grab it with MA or Spell Sniper and if you're a Charisma character it's hard to say no to it. Agonizing Blast just takes a strong choice and makes it truly shine.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, yeah. And that's why it was more balanced in general.

Nobody took spells like Plane Shift or Imprisonment mostly because nobody really wanted to bother getting them, unless they really wanted them, in which case that can be delegated to downtime.

I mean, I think casters have too much power in their RAW form, but I'm not going to hand them more power and let them run wild with obviously broken spells without some form of difficulty.

...

Why are you referring to Imprisonment and Plane Shift as obviously broken? Heck, I never saw people take those because they weren't worth it. Except Plane Shift because the plot was going to demand it.

But I did see them take things like Shapechange, Heroes' Feast, True Seeing, and then mostly get caught off-guard about these components that they suddenly needed when 95% of their casting was done with their focus.

I don't know...

If a player took Magic Initiate Eldritch Blast, I'd be more inclined to agree. But typically I see it being dipped into for two levels because Agonizing Blast turns it from okay to extremely good.

Thing was, that was what I saw. If you had an option to get a cantrip, and weren't going for a specific build, like with Shillelagh or Guidance, they took Eldritch Blast. It wasn't much of a question for them.

 

[Stalker0]

...

Why are you referring to Imprisonment and Plane Shift as obviously broken?

Hehehe the only time I consider Planeshift broken is on the Githzerai Zerth.

Its a CR 6 creature that once per day can cast plane shift (and its not specified that its self only). So yeah your little level 6 character in a random encounter can shunt off to god knows where.... either you roll up a new character or you completely change the campaign to go into the planes and find them.

I doubt many people would use it that way, but by the book, they are terrifying weapons.

 

[Asisreo]

...

Why are you referring to Imprisonment and Plane Shift as obviously broken? Heck, I never saw people take those because they weren't worth it. Except Plane Shift because the plot was going to demand it.

But I did see them take things like Shapechange, Heroes' Feast, True Seeing, and then mostly get caught off-guard about these components that they suddenly needed when 95% of their casting was done with their focus.

Sure, maybe you don't find those broken, its not like I don't see them often. But spells like Shapchange, Gate, Create Undead, Contingency, and Forcecage are all imfamously powerful spells that don't consume their components.

Thing was, that was what I saw. If you had an option to get a cantrip, and weren't going for a specific build, like with Shillelagh or Guidance, they took Eldritch Blast. It wasn't much of a question for them.

But were they getting it as a treat on the side or were they specifically going out of their way for a non-enhanced eldritch blast? Because sure, out of all the cantrips, eldritch blast is the best, but that's like saying out of all the simple weapons, spears are the best so spears are a great weapon.

11 damage at level 5 is pitiful, you're not going to specifically decide to grab a feat or take a 1 level warlock dip exclusively for an unbuffed EB.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, maybe you don't find those broken, its not like I don't see them often. But spells like Shapchange, Gate, Create Undead, Contingency, and Forcecage are all imfamously powerful spells that don't consume their components.

Right, and I see those all the time, but almost never see anyone bothering with the components. Because they aren't THAT hard to get. Like, Contingency is a statuette of yourself. You just buy one. It isn't exactly "quest worthy".

But were they getting it as a treat on the side or were they specifically going out of their way for a non-enhanced eldritch blast? Because sure, out of all the cantrips, eldritch blast is the best, but that's like saying out of all the simple weapons, spears are the best so spears are a great weapon.

11 damage at level 5 is pitiful, you're not going to specifically decide to grab a feat or take a 1 level warlock dip exclusively for an unbuffed EB.

Sure, 11 damage is pitiful for a dedicated build, but for a ranged option for a build? And it isn't like casters get much beyond 11 damage at level 5 for an at-will ranged cantrip. Saying that is pitiful is saying that ALL cantrips are pitiful. Technically true, but it still makes it the best in its field.

And the thing is, you never WERE getting exclusively eldritch blast. Spell Sniper let's you ignore cover and increase your range, Magic Initiate gives you another cantrip and a spell, even the Warlock level comes with a pact magic slot. They aren't exclusively getting it, but when given the choice of Eldritch Blast or any other damage cantrip.... people grabbed and unmodified eldritch blast basically every time, unless they were a melee build.

 

[Asisreo]

Right, and I see those all the time, but almost never see anyone bothering with the components. Because they aren't THAT hard to get. Like, Contingency is a statuette of yourself. You just buy one. It isn't exactly "quest worthy".

And this is where rules being skipped over for simplicity probably comes from. Where do you buy a statuette of yourself? We'd assume you'd have a craftsman make it for you. But is the assumption that it would be done the same day?

Because if the craftsman is following the crafting rules in the PHB, it would take him 300 days to complete. Add on the cost of his services, that's a 600gp increase in price.

I can't imagine a game outside of a oneshot where you just...buy these things. Its almost as strange as a character going "can I just buy the lesson to earn a feat before this adventure with a deadline of tomorrow, I don't want to be bogged down by not having access to it."

Sure, 11 damage is pitiful for a dedicated build, but for a ranged option for a build? And it isn't like casters get much beyond 11 damage at level 5 for an at-will ranged cantrip. Saying that is pitiful is saying that ALL cantrips are pitiful. Technically true, but it still makes it the best in its field.

And the thing is, you never WERE getting exclusively eldritch blast. Spell Sniper let's you ignore cover and increase your range, Magic Initiate gives you another cantrip and a spell, even the Warlock level comes with a pact magic slot. They aren't exclusively getting it, but when given the choice of Eldritch Blast or any other damage cantrip.... people grabbed and unmodified eldritch blast basically every time, unless they were a melee build.

I'm talking about the sole purpose of getting EB. Nobody does that. Like you said, you get other benefits but you wouldn't have grabbed those options without those other benefits.

EB isn't worth a whole class level. EB isn't worth a feat. EB is like the side dish of a meal. You wouldn't pay a full meal's price for a side dish, but if you get the full meal and the side dish, then it's be worth it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And this is where rules being skipped over for simplicity probably comes from. Where do you buy a statuette of yourself? We'd assume you'd have a craftsman make it for you. But is the assumption that it would be done the same day?

Because if the craftsman is following the crafting rules in the PHB, it would take him 300 days to complete. Add on the cost of his services, that's a 600gp increase in price.

I can't imagine a game outside of a oneshot where you just...buy these things. Its almost as strange as a character going "can I just buy the lesson to earn a feat before this adventure with a deadline of tomorrow, I don't want to be bogged down by not having access to it."

There wouldn't be an increase in price, because the cost of labor is calculated into the cost of the work. And you've now demonstrated exactly why no one wants to deal with this. Either it is go to the store and buy it, or it is go to the store and then wait a year... and then buy it. Neither of those is interesting. And the "more realistic" version is just a pain in the neck for no good reason.

So, at that point, you might as well just cross the spell off the spell list. Because if you require the crafting rules to be enforced on this and it must be crafted.... then it is never going to happen in a reasonable amount of time, and no one is going to ever bother getting the spell.

This is the same issue even with cheaper spells. Chromatic Orb is not notably more powerful than other 1st level spells, but that 50 gp cost is prohibitive until you get to be 4th level or higher. So either the spell never gets used and is wasted ink on the page, or you handwave the cost. And if you think the cost is part of the balance, fine, charge the cost, but don't then try and make it a side-quest on top of the cost, because at that point you really should just ban the spell and move on.

I'm talking about the sole purpose of getting EB. Nobody does that. Like you said, you get other benefits but you wouldn't have grabbed those options without those other benefits.

EB isn't worth a whole class level. EB isn't worth a feat. EB is like the side dish of a meal. You wouldn't pay a full meal's price for a side dish, but if you get the full meal and the side dish, then it's be worth it.

No one goes and gets Longbow proficiency just for the longbow either, but it is still the best ranged weapon in the game without feats.

And, again, going back to the original point. If it is meant to be defining for the class.... then it NEEDS to be top in its field. Otherwise it isn't class defining. Vicious Mockery isn't the best damage cantrip, but it is the best debuff/control cantrip. It define the bard. Sacred Flame isn't a great cantrip... and it does not define the cleric. And what cantrip defines the wizard? None of them, because they have a selection of equally good options.

The position never was that EB had to be worth an entire class level by itsefl or an entire feat by itself, but that it had to be a superior option to be class defining, and that it is a superior option, because it is sought out heavily.

 

[Asisreo]

There wouldn't be an increase in price, because the cost of labor is calculated into the cost of the work. And you've now demonstrated exactly why no one wants to deal with this. Either it is go to the store and buy it, or it is go to the store and then wait a year... and then buy it. Neither of those is interesting. And the "more realistic" version is just a pain in the neck for no good reason.

So, at that point, you might as well just cross the spell off the spell list. Because if you require the crafting rules to be enforced on this and it must be crafted.... then it is never going to happen in a reasonable amount of time, and no one is going to ever bother getting the spell.

This is the same issue even with cheaper spells. Chromatic Orb is not notably more powerful than other 1st level spells, but that 50 gp cost is prohibitive until you get to be 4th level or higher. So either the spell never gets used and is wasted ink on the page, or you handwave the cost. And if you think the cost is part of the balance, fine, charge the cost, but don't then try and make it a side-quest on top of the cost, because at that point you really should just ban the spell and move on.

I mean, this is what I've been saying all along. Most players won't think its worth taking...so they won't. Its a part of the balance. And I actually liked how some spells practically needed a "DM ok" before letting things go.

No one goes and gets Longbow proficiency just for the longbow either, but it is still the best ranged weapon in the game without feats.

And, again, going back to the original point. If it is meant to be defining for the class.... then it NEEDS to be top in its field. Otherwise it isn't class defining. Vicious Mockery isn't the best damage cantrip, but it is the best debuff/control cantrip. It define the bard. Sacred Flame isn't a great cantrip... and it does not define the cleric. And what cantrip defines the wizard? None of them, because they have a selection of equally good options.

The position never was that EB had to be worth an entire class level by itsefl or an entire feat by itself, but that it had to be a superior option to be class defining, and that it is a superior option, because it is sought out heavily.

What I'm saying is that EB isn't even the best of at-will damage without warlock investment but with it, it becomes one of the best at-will damage sources in the game.

The sorcerer's arcane burst should be like that. Arcane Burst shouldn't be amazing as a cantrip alone, but as you progress as a sorcerer, it becomes one of the best cantrips in the game rivaling a fully upgraded EB.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean, this is what I've been saying all along. Most players won't think its worth taking...so they won't. Its a part of the balance. And I actually liked how some spells practically needed a "DM ok" before letting things go.

But it isn't part of the balance. More powerful spells don't have component costs. I can set a 1st through 5th level spell to cast automatically... or I can change the weather for an entire region for 8 hours with devastating effect to the region (in terms of realism). One of these requires 1,500 gold specially made statue, the other requires some mud and some herbs.

And all it takes is seeing the expected wealth levels to realize that these component costs are not enough to be balancing factor according to the designers.

What I'm saying is that EB isn't even the best of at-will damage without warlock investment but with it, it becomes one of the best at-will damage sources in the game.

The sorcerer's arcane burst should be like that. Arcane Burst shouldn't be amazing as a cantrip alone, but as you progress as a sorcerer, it becomes one of the best cantrips in the game rivaling a fully upgraded EB.

I'm fully on board with Arcane Burst getting better with sorcerer levels, but you are seriously under-estimating Eldritch Blast. It is the best ranged option without feats or special boosts, except maybe a fighter with a longbow, and it has to be a fighter, because everyone else gets too few attacks.

And, again, I'd love for Arcane Burst to rival it, I really would, but I'd be fine with it just being a decent option too, which is currently is not.

 

[Asisreo]

But it isn't part of the balance. More powerful spells don't have component costs. I can set a 1st through 5th level spell to cast automatically... or I can change the weather for an entire region for 8 hours with devastating effect to the region (in terms of realism). One of these requires 1,500 gold specially made statue, the other requires some mud and some herbs.

And all it takes is seeing the expected wealth levels to realize that these component costs are not enough to be balancing factor according to the designers.

Which is why there are these rules for crafting and craftsmen and skilled labor, etc. Its not just wealth, its also time. And while changing the weather is cool and flavorful especially for a druid, its not as impactful for most adventures as having a precast leveled spell prepared on you at all times.

I'm fully on board with Arcane Burst getting better with sorcerer levels, but you are seriously under-estimating Eldritch Blast. It is the best ranged option without feats or special boosts, except maybe a fighter with a longbow, and it has to be a fighter, because everyone else gets too few attacks.

And, again, I'd love for Arcane Burst to rival it, I really would, but I'd be fine with it just being a decent option too, which is currently is not.

Let's just agree to disagree on the power of an unenhanced EB. I still think being the best of the worst isn't a crowning acheivement.