D&D 4E 4e and save or dies.

[baberg]

This has nothing to do with 3.5. The OP was asking why, IN THIS EDITION, monsters get save or dies and PCs don't.

I was referring to WarlockLord's post which I've quoted below:

I hate how we don't have as many options anymore. Prior editions, you could use the arcane spellcaster to create a necromancer, conjurer, spy, etc. Now you have "boom mage" and "snipe mage". Woo-hoo! Go you!

Not enough powers. Looking through the monster manual is like seeing the cool and interesting powers we used to have in 3e, given to the monsters while you hit the bad guys with a web spell and realize they can still shoot because they would feel bad about themselves because they didn't get actions.

Tell me now how he's not comparing 4e to 3e.

I stand by my point. Approach 4e from the standpoint of "This is a brand new game" and you'll be a lot happier - either because (a) you finally start to like it, or (b) you realize the only reason you care is that its name is "Dungeons and Dragons" so you can finally put it down and play whatever game makes you happy.

 

[WarlockLord]

Oh, forgive me for DARING to compare the current edition of D&D to the previous one. How could I do such a stupid thing? Never mind that they have "Dungeons and Dragons" plastered all over their covers and are made by WoTC. Never mind that some of the iconic conventions are still visible. Nope. Can't compare the two. Please forgive my abject stupidity.

Honestly, if they are going to change the game to be unrecognizable, they really should call it something else.

 

[baberg]

Oh, forgive me for DARING to compare the current edition of D&D to the previous one. How could I do such a stupid thing? Never mind that they have "Dungeons and Dragons" plastered all over their covers and are made by WoTC. Never mind that some of the iconic conventions are still visible. Nope. Can't compare the two. Please forgive my abject stupidity.

Honestly, if they are going to change the game to be unrecognizable, they really should call it something else.

Well that was unnecessarily hostile.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Oh, forgive me for DARING to compare the current edition of D&D to the previous one. How could I do such a stupid thing? Never mind that they have "Dungeons and Dragons" plastered all over their covers and are made by WoTC. Never mind that some of the iconic conventions are still visible. Nope. Can't compare the two. Please forgive my abject stupidity.

Honestly, if they are going to change the game to be unrecognizable, they really should call it something else.

Funny it seems just like D&D to me and I have been at this since 1977. You didnt have as many thing available to you in 3.X when its 3 core books came out as you do in 4. At least in my opinion. And since the books have been out a whopping 5 days you can not expect them to have 20 to 30 splatbooks out already for you to have whatever option that you want.

Its a new rules set for the same game. I have seen so many incarnations of this game its crazy. And to be truthful I like this on much better than I did 3.X Doesnt mean I didnt have fun in 3.Xm because I did. But I wont touch my 3.X books or play another game in that system. I like this one too much now and with my LG dying this year and LFR starting that is where my momentum lies.

 

[Gladius Legis]

This actually is one of my few gripes about 4e. They didn't remove save or dies, but they did introduce a mechanic that turns them into something that's not "TEH WIN BUTTON." An actually fairly balanced mechanic that happens to give victims a fair chance to fight it off.

And then only gave it to monsters. Geh. Hopefully Arcane Power will see the return of spells like Implosion, Wail of the Banshee, and Power Words but using these new mechanics.

 

[Ahglock]

Well that was unnecessarily hostile.

When people reply with hostility, sometimes there is a reason. Re-read your own post and maybe you can see why. You might not of meant to come across as trying to talk down to someone, but the internet does not translate intent very well.

 

[sukael]

Take a look at the wizard's sleep spell. As used against a great many monsters, it's effectively a save-or-die if it works, as long as another PC or two get the chance to coup de grace the now-unconscious creature.

 

[Victoly]

Monsters have "save or die" abilities for the purpose of giving players who invested in abilities which boost their saving throws or otherwise help them shake off such effects a place to shine. Players don't need these powers.

Just about every class but the wizard has more options than before, and to be blunt, the wizard had too many options before. The wizard had so many options that the other players' skills became largely irrelevant unless they involved preventing the wizard from dying in combat.

Also, your gripes about Drow don't lend any credibility to your case.

 

[NewfieDave]

I don't think save or die is needed anymore on the player's side. The only real appeal to me is the whole "one shot, one kill" feeling you get from using such a power. You get that from killing minions now.

 

[Zurai]

Monsters are allowed to be badass as well.

2 monsters have it...

Far more than two, actually.

Stoneye Basilisk
Beholder Eye Tyrant (two simultaneous save-or-save-or-dies, there)
Bodak
Bodak Reaver
Spirit Devourer (kinda)
Gibbering Orb
Iron Gorgon
Medusa Archer
Medusa Shroud of Zehir
Mummy Guardian
Mummy Lord (Human Cleric)
Giant Mummy
Nightwalker
Orcus
Gray Slaad
Red Slaad
Blue Slaad
Green Slaad


That's just a quick look-through. I'm sure I missed at least one.