4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

[Glyfair]

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, but you want to be able to decide to do any random thing in the middle of combat? If you don't have to put thought into your actions, but somehow things are expected to work out, then why bother having the mechanics of a fight? Would you, as the player, narrating the fight to the DM be the kind of thing you are looking for?

I think that Heroquest is probably the sort of game he wants. In combat the in-game tactics don't decide the fight. You use the game system to determine the result (in a not too complicated manner) and then narrate the result, typically based on your approach and the result. In fact, all contests in the game use the same system.

Fighting the bandit that attacks you is basically the same as trying to convince the shopkeep to take your offer for his merchandise. Now, your "fight with sword" skill will be more useful in the first, but the second is probably better for your "haggle like the devil" or "sly seductiveness" skills.

Both systems work, but there aren't a lot of players who really enjoy both styles of play the same amount.

 

[Barastrondo]

The truth is I'm a person who really doesn't like fighting. I don't want to kill people/beings, I don't even want to hurt them. Or, at least, I don't want to think about it. The only way I can imagine fighting is if it's a visceral slugfest, a non-thinking activity. The mechanics of D&D tactical fighting force me out of that. So I either want a non-tactical option or more out-of-combat mechanics. (It's probably why I ask why people need combat rules but not non-combat rules: I feel like avoiding the combat rules but still want to play a game I look for non-combat mechanics to interact with.)

Interesting answer, thanks! I can guess you'd have decent amounts of trouble with most incarnations of D&D — it's very much a "lethal solutions" kind of game (though I will admit that it's nice that 4e gives you the option to subdue and knock unconscious whenever you knock a foe to 0 HP).

I'm finding that once you wrap your head around skill challenges, they become a pretty remarkable mechanic for running mini-games outside of combat. My group and I are trying them in a very free-form fashion: instead of specifically figuring out what skills provide what results ahead of time, I jot down a few ideas and let the players propose the rest once they see the scenario. With practice, I think we'll get to the point where the players can actually nominate off-the-cuff "So can we do a skill challenge to achieve this?", I say "Sure!", and we go through an impromptu mini-game. If we can pull that off (and I have no reason to believe that we can't, with practice), the game will work very well for going in all kinds of unexpected directions.

 

[Hereticus]

Not that I want to contradict any of your fun here, but when you get farther into the adventure, you might find that Wizards are still pretty fragile.

We just started a new game of 3.5E, and to no surprise I am playing a Wizard again. We just made fourth level, and Silent Illusion has saved the party twice and Rope Trick once.

The Sleep spell has been by far the best weapon of the entire party.

And only the Cleric (Longstrider) and I (Expeditious Retreat) survived one failed battle while the Fighter and the Thief were caught and eaten.

Fourth edition does give Wizards more survivability with Cantrips and At-Will powers. Here is the write-up from a third level battle where I was the only survivor.

Our plan was for [Tiefling Cleric] to involve [villain] in a card game, with no set plan for attacking him, but to flip out when the moment was right and accuse him of cheating. We feared that if we had a plan, that [villain]’s luck would detect it or be prepared (he had a luck sword). However [villain] seemed intent on letting [Cleric] win the first few games, and it wasn’t till the fifth hand that [villain] won. [Cleric] immediately flew into a rage, [Dragonborn Warlord] and [Human Fighter] jumped him, [Elf Wizard] cast Magic Missile, and I [Eladrin Wizard] fired two Force Orbs (free action, wand of power). All spells missed, and [Warlord] and [Fighter] slipped off him. I did do some damage with the secondary effects of my spells. [Warlord], [Fighter] and [Cleric] went after [villain], but were blocked by the crowd. [Elf] missed with another Magic Missile. I moved closer to the door to give myself line of sight to an escape route, and cast a Flaming Sphere in front of [villain]. The bar erupted into a major brawl, and [Warlord], [Fighter], [Cleric], [Elf] and I were surrounded and being grappled. I moved my Flaming Sphere toward me which scared some people away, and I Fey Stepped toward a balcony on the other side of the road.

The bar building soon caught fire, and some fleeing locals spotted me on the balcony. I did not see any of my associates get out, but I did see [villain] walk away seemingly unnoticed by the crowd and undamaged from the fight. As the crowd stormed into the building below me (I was on the second level), I ran toward the stairway to the roof and cast a Scorching Burst between myself and the angry mob. Trapped on a high roof I cast two more Scorching Burst at the mob that was charging me. By now the building was on fire. On the far side of the building below me were three horse-mounted deputies with swords. The roof was 20 feet high and I was no athlete, but I jumped anyway toward the right-most deputy. Using my Wand of Accuracy ability I cast Icy Rays at two of the deputies, immobilizing both. I cast Feather Fall as an immediate interrupt and landed on the horse of one of the immobilized deputies, and pushed him off. I took off on the horse with the third deputy chasing me. While fleeing I hit his horse with three of four Magic Missile spells, downing the horse and sending the deputy flying to the ground. Unfortunately there were at least a dozen more riders coming after me.

I rode out of town as quickly as possible, casting an occasional Scorching Burst at the posse chasing me to keep them at lest 50 feet behind me. Riding through the forest I chose trails at random, not knowing where I was going. A few riders (four) branched off to the left, while the rest (eight) remained safely behind me. After the trail wound a bit, I spotted an ambush up ahead. As I approached I cast Scorching Burst at the four bowmen waiting to fire on me, then grabbed one of the bows with Mage Hand. However three of them fired arrows at me, and all three hit. As I passed by them I expended a Healing Surge, then was hit by two more arrows. I healed some more, but all dozen riders were still chasing me. I spotted a chasm up ahead, and the road turned to the left. As I got closer I jumped off my horse and it ran off the cliff. I found cover before the riders arrived, and I used Mage Hand to appear as though I was hanging on from the edge of the cliff, and Ghost Sounds to yell for help from that spot. As they got nearer I let go and made a sound that resembled a person screaming as they fell. My trick worked, because they left a minute later.

 

[Lanefan]

Silvercat, I too prefer to play the gonzo fighting style; not because I don't like combat, but because - given the choice - I'd far rather charge first and ask questions never than spend any amount of time optimizing things.

I'm not sure how finely-tuned the math is in 4e, whether it's internally flexible enough to work equally well for two parties - one all power-optimizing tacticians, and the other a bunch of gonzos. 3e is fine-tuned enough that the two parties would meet with vastly different fates. With something like 0e or 1e, the buildable powers etc. just aren't there, considerably narrowing the gap between the tacticians and the gonzos.

Lan-"chaaaarge!"-efan

 

[Squizzle]

The only thing that really bugs me about the rules is the lack of rules for close combat (ie two opponents occupying the same square). In the first 4th session I played, my PC ended up in a position where I wanted him to jump onto the back of an orc that was giving the party a run for their money. The plan I had in my head was to jump him than put my PC's arms under the orc's arms and have him lock his hands behind the orc's head. This would have forced the orc's head down and its arms out to its sides. With no clear cut rules on wrestling, I chose to have my PC pursue another orc up the stairs. With one of the parties fighters on the stairs right behind my PC jumping the orc was the best tactical decision./quote]
Off the top of my head, Athletics roll vs. orc's Fortitude. Success makes you occupy the same square. Orc grants combat advantage, is slowed, and can't make OAs. Escape as in a grab. I'd also probablyhave you risk being hiy by any attacks made against the orc, although that would vary--a melee basic attack, sure, but Vicious Mockery? Not so much muck risk.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Silvercat, I too prefer to play the gonzo fighting style; not because I don't like combat, but because - given the choice - I'd far rather charge first and ask questions never than spend any amount of time optimizing things.

I think the Barbarian class is made for this style of combat. Flip into Rage, charge your enemies, kill them, charge the next.
An (Archery) Ranger is good for this, too.

 

[BryonD]

Frankly, that's one of my favorite things about 4e. It breaks D&D players of the (usually unstated) idea that role playing outside of combat is something that requires spells to do.

Wow. Frankly, I'd have to turn that statement on its head and say that, at best, 4E is better for those people who need the game itself to support their RP outside of combat.

I find the claim that this was an issue with D&D players in general prior to 4E to be amusing.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Frankly, that's one of my favorite things about 4e. It breaks D&D players of the (usually unstated) idea that role playing outside of combat is something that requires spells to do.

That's pretty much the opposite of how I've seen it. 4e breaks D&D players of the idea that role play outside of combat can be done with your character abilities. I'm glad you houseruled it otherwise, but houseruling is still fixes, and fixes implies something that needs to be mended.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I think that Heroquest is probably the sort of game he wants. In combat the in-game tactics don't decide the fight. You use the game system to determine the result (in a not too complicated manner) and then narrate the result, typically based on your approach and the result. In fact, all contests in the game use the same system.

Fighting the bandit that attacks you is basically the same as trying to convince the shopkeep to take your offer for his merchandise. Now, your "fight with sword" skill will be more useful in the first, but the second is probably better for your "haggle like the devil" or "sly seductiveness" skills.

That actually sounds like a pretty good system for me. I have bought, though not played, a game called Cartoon Action Hour: Season 2 that resolves conflicts exchange by exchange but relies on player-made traits that all work more or less the same. So you can have characters who fight tactically, characters who don't, and characters who don't fight at all, and they could all end a fight but feel different. And character who fight don't actually have to be assumed to even hit people.

 

[Mallus]

Frankly, I'd have to turn that statement on its head and say that, at best, 4E is better for those people who need the game itself to support their RP outside of combat.

Curious. Why?

I find the claim that this was an issue with D&D players in general prior to 4E to be amusing.

I find it easily verifiable.

Recall for a moment all the threads in which 4e was labeled 'bad for role playing'. Why were people making this claim?

The reason given usually boiled down to "no/few spells usable out-of-combat, except for rituals, which are slow and cost money so they don't count". As if the vast array of out-of-combat actions a character could take to solve in-game obstacles depended on the ability to use the traditional D&D spell list. Which made sense, given that spells were usually the most decisive tool at a party's disposal.

Hence my statement about the dependence on magic for role playing (is the term the problem? Perhaps I should replace "role playing" with "out-of-combat problem solving"?).