D&D 4E 4e Battle Tactic: Murder by Pinball

[Krensus]

We're discussing the rules of 4th edition, not the houserules of your group. Please stick on topic. Thank you.

I was under the impression that creatures take damage from these abilities when entering the space of an effect, not a square that the effect occupies. Much like how a large creature has 1 space made up of 4 squares. I don't believe this was simply a house rule, can anyone clarify?

 

[Danceofmasks]

Customer service reckons pushing a mob along the length of a blade barrier = damage per square moved.
However, I'm not confident when it comes to those guys.

I'm with the space of spell includes all squares = entering once.
However, since once per round is not a stipulation on wall of fire, this also means you can dunk 'em in and out for multiple burnination.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd say that choosing to drop prone instead of enter the dangerous space is not always a great idea - for stuff that causes a LOT of damage it might be worth it. There's a good chance it won't help you much: you've a 50% chance of avoiding each dunk, but your pusher only needs 1 square of forced movement to try again, so you'll take a little bit less damage at the cost of being prone, which if there is a rogue around could be a huge mistake, and is always robbing you of half your turn if you want to move. And if you got dunked into a zone, you probably want to move.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's a good chance it won't help you much: you've a 50% chance of avoiding each dunk, but your pusher only needs 1 square of forced movement to try again...

He'll likely need a separate power to try again. 'Catching Yourself' on PHB p284-285 specifies that with a successful save-to-fall-prone to avoid falling over a precipice or into a pit, forced movement ends; it's not unreasonable to assume that the principle extends to forced movement into hindering terrain, in which case a single successful save will negate an entire long zig-zag of forced movement pinball.

-Hyp.

 

[Plane Sailing]

We're discussing the rules of 4th edition, not the houserules of your group. Please stick on topic. Thank you.

It is always permissible for people to explain how they rule it. This kind of dismissive comment is not allowed. To make the point, you may not post in this thread again.

Edit - just noticed that Hypersmurf has already spoken to you about it.

 

[jaer]

A Wall of Fire is not hindering terrain because the power does not specify it as such. So, no saving throw.
[/i]

This is an interesting arguement since Merriam-Webster says this about Hinder (yes, I got the real definition).

transitive verb 1 : to make slow or difficult the progress of : hamper
2 : to hold back : check

intransitive verb : to delay, impede, or prevent action

Now, technically, knocking someone off a cliff isn't slowing their progress...in fact it is making them progress very quickly downward.

So I suppose it depends on what you are hindering the target from. If it is strictly movement, then only forced movement into difficult (movement reducing) terrain (put in the game, you don't save vs. being pushed into difficult terrain!) or into a pit 1-square wide pit (being that the only movement in the pit would be to climb out, and which is slower movement)is hindering them, so off cliffs would be just fine.

If you mean hindering their victory, I would think forcing them into damaging terrain counts.

But the, I guess characters who can teleport aren't hindered by difficult terrain, so then you could move them into rough terrain....

Perhaps they should have used a "damaging terrain" instead of "hindering terrain" since that seems to be what they meant: squares that have damaging or life-threatening qualities if you enter them.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think the intent of the saving throw was meant to include being moved to any square with an effect other than "normal" terrain. The keyword mumbo jumbo IMHO just made it that much harder for the already inadequate editing to keep up with rule changes.

I believe that movement through continuous squares of an effect do produce continuous damage. If someone is moved into a fire its not the act of moving that causes the damage but the fire. To rule that there is no further damage means that the target has somehow " acclimated" to fire, cold, whirling blades, ect and is just fine there now

One interesting thing to notice is if a target fails to save being pushed into an effect, and then moved further into that effect, would he/she/it WANT a save at that point? Who would want to fall prone WITHIN a fire effect?

 

[Switchback]

If 4e is supposed to be recreating cinematic style battles, I find pushing monsters endlessly through zig-zagging lines for mass effect, as kind of failing to generate that cinematic excitement just when you think about what is happening in the combat visually.

While it is certainly memorable to dispatch a main villain by pushing him in a cauldron of fire, or knocking him into a viper pit or something, it is much less so to have him pushed around like he is on the end of a long mop, back and forth through a wall of fire 6 times as his deathblow.

There are other build combos that rely on things like Thunderwave endlessly blasting monsters back so many squares they can't even get back into combat with you before being blasted again. That's an odd representation of epic level combat.

Maybe they should have put a maximum distance on forced movement.

Or at least based on effect. It seems reasonable that being hit with the immense force of a dragon's tail might send you flying 8 squares in 6 seconds. But a Rogue with Positioning Strike 'shoving' as per the flavor text, a creature 30 feet back due to his high charisma is a little wonky.

I wouldn't be surprised to see clarification allowing Saving Throws to be applied in most all these type of cases of various terrain or spell effects.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, since it takes 4 squares of movement to enter a wall of fire, it's a rather nasty tactic to push your foes into a corner, then wall them in (so that they take damage from proximity).
Readied forced movement actions (such as Thunderwave) to push 'em back into the corner if they enter the wall's space.

Maximum advantage through battlefield manipulation.
That's a controller at his best.

Shouldn't be trying to fault a Wizard for being a bastard .. it's part of their job description.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It seems to me that the basic principle is that area stuff does damage for each round or part thereof that you are in it. So if you enter it on your go, you take damage. If you start your go in there, you take damage. Otherwise, you could be in a blade barrier or wall of fire and take less damage by standing still in it than you would by moving a couple of squares to get out of it!

As a DM, I'd rule that if you took damage for starting your round in there, then moved out and then moved back in again you wouldn't take extra damage, Similarly if somebody shifted you back and forth through it, I'd only apply damage once.

However, if PC1 knocks someone through the fire, then PC2 knocks him in again, and PC3 knocks him in -again-, I'd probably allow that.

It does seem like a potentially strange artifact of the system though