D&D 4E 4E boon or bust for Old School support?

[HelloChristian]

I think there will always be folks who prefer to kick it 1e style. As 4e moves further away from 1e's style and mechanic, the desire to preserve and promote the past may gain strength. Heck, I know that's how it works with me and my zine.

 

[Valiant]

The reason I asked was that you suggested OSRIC was seen as possibly illegal, thus TLG won't allow its discussion on its board. But, if TLG doesn't use OSRIC whats the harm? Are these guys super ethical people who refuse to discuss something that might be illegal (even though its never been proven in a court of law)? OSRIC is fine here and at DF, so why not TLG?

Also, if Gygax doesn't have a problem with OSRIC (and I believe he's stated this several times at DF in the past) why should TLG.

I suspect it has more to do with the business end of it. If your Coke and you have a forum, do you really want people to be pushing discussion about how great Pepsi is?

If you own TLG (and make your living as a small publisher), do you want posters pushing EXPRs modules...perhaps even comparing Joe B.s product quality to TLGs? Given the problems C&C has had with editing, I wouldn't. I suspect thats probably the real reason.
And there isn't anything wrong with that if it is, however, I think presenting those other reasons (if indeed they did) is foolish, somewhat transparant and causes conflict between the 2 camps. I agree with Mythmere, burry the hatchet. Why not allow discussion to build bridges, rather then burn them.

 

[Treebore]

I'm able to talk about any other company at the TLG boards, including XRP. OSRIC is the only product line we can't talk about. Or any product done under the OSRIC name, even when done by XRP.

 

[Orcus]

I guarantee that Necromancer Games will give 4E a huge "first edition injection" David Lee Roth style whether it wants it or not... And we've got a big "first edition". You can see it in our spandex pants.

As for OSRIC, I love the idea but I have huge questions about its legality. Always have. I, for one, would never touch it with a ten foot pole. Or in old school speak, a 10' pole. But I understand the attraction. You're on your own. And that is no criticism of the guys who use it and will probably flame me for saying that. I know they are into it and believe in it and want it to succeed. And I respect that. But I still wouldnt touch it. So anyone who tells you OSRIC is clearly legal is, IMHO, looking at it with biased eyes because they want it to be. If you are going to use it, hire a lawyer.

Frankly, I think there will be a pretty significant niche of publishers who stay 3E and try to keep that segment alive.

We've chosen to embrace 4E, because that is just my philosophy. I started with the boxed set. When Blackmoor and GH came out, I used them. When Eldritch Wizardry came out and DDG, I used them. When the AD&D MM came out, ditto. Same with the PHB and DMG. Same with 2E. Same with 3E. I have always done it and always will. But my heart is firmly in the game experience I had with old school D&D. We want to bring old school goodness to the most current version of the rules. And I have every reason to believe we will be successful.

Clark

 

[Valiant]

As for OSRIC, I love the idea but I have huge questions about its legality. Always have. I, for one, would never touch it with a ten foot pole. Or in old school speak, a 10' pole. But I understand the attraction. You're on your own. And that is no criticism of the guys who use it and will probably flame me for saying that. I know they are into it and believe in it and want it to succeed. And I respect that. But I still wouldnt touch it. So anyone who tells you OSRIC is clearly legal is, IMHO, looking at it with biased eyes because they want it to be. If you are going to use it, hire a lawyer.

I think you may be confusing 2 issues.

OSRIC itself, "the document" owned by Papers and Paychecks "may" be illegal. If you were going to print OSRIC the book (or portions of it) and sell it, yes this might be a risk for you. Lucky for you, thats P&Ps problem not yours. (Thanks English law).

Now that has nothing to do with the second issue, selling OSRIC modules.
All one has to do is write a generic module and slap OSRIC on the cover and your done.
Just follow the OGL 100% and your golden.

For instance, if you were to write a description of a room in your dungeon, and within that description write: 12 ORCs in chain armor armed with a mix of swords, HPs 4 each, AC 4, you've done nothing wrong (all you did is list HPs and AC). And you've supplied all the information (rules wise) the AD&D/OSRIC GM needs to run that encounter. If you were really brave you might even include a page number referal to the OSRIC book!

Next room: Pit trap 3 feet in from door, with poisoned spikes save vs. petrification or take 2-12, second save vs. poison or die. Once again, you tell the DM all he needs to run the save. Nothing controversal here at all. If the new DM (coming from 3E say) doesn't understand these notions he simply downloads OSRIC and reads it.

Look everyone, "OSRIC Compatable" slapped on the cover is simply a notice to all the world "AD&D 1E compatable".

That alone is not a violation of the law. What is inside might be, and that depends what
you put in there.

Infact, taking a look at EXPR's "Pods" right here in front of me, I see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WOTC would have a problem with. They may not like OSRIC on the cover, but within the document I see nothing remotely questionable. Take a look for yourself.


Now, if Joe B. copied the OSRIC descending tables in his document, that I could see being a risk. If Joe B. said in his document what level limits of half elves were for certain classes, yes that might be a risk. But simply listing an AC and level is in no way shape or form a violation of anything.

This industry wide caution, is valid if you were planning on printing the OSRIC book.

But there is NOTHING stopping anyone from putting on the cover of modules OSRIC compatable (just so people know your market is AD&Ders, and that zero conversion is required) and keeping your information 100% OGL compliant.

Personally, I think this sort of "advice" and public airing of "I'd hire a lawyer" and "I wouldn't touch this with a yada yada foot pole" relates more to scare tactics, these PROFESSIONAL companies don't want ANY competition from guys like you and me who might solo publish modules via PDF or LULU. They have a small enough pie they have to share already. Plus, if the public puts out excellent "for profit" modules well edited and proofed with really original ideas and creative encounters and 100% AD&D compatable to boot, its going to put the preasure on them to actually do some work and increase their quality.

In short, if you have any questions at all about the legality of an OSRIC module you might write, send a copy to WOTC and have them show you were they see any legal problems (they won't, trust me). Then you have the "green light" sell away.

PS: ORCUS When I read: " I, for one, would never touch it with a ten foot pole. Or in old school speak, a 10' pole. But I understand the attraction." I found this in bad form. It sounds like your giving scare tactic advice and then covering it up with a smiley face and use "I" as cover. Feels like a hit to the D20s! Thats not the best way to build good relations with your customer base (who for the most part support OSRIC).

 

[Valiant]

I'm able to talk about any other company at the TLG boards, including XRP. OSRIC is the only product line we can't talk about. Or any product done under the OSRIC name, even when done by XRP.

Once again, this sounds to me like TLG is scared of something. You know Treebore, maybe they fear splitting the C&C customer base. The C&C product in many ways tries to hold a middle ground between 1Eers and 3Eers. If you allow for OSRIC discussion, this could drive a wedge between those who'd like to see C&C develop more toward 1E vs. those who want to see it develop more toward 3E or 2E (in all aspects really).

Why risk deviding your base?

 

[Orcus]

Believe me, it has nothing to do with competition. I'm the guy who stood on the street corner shouting "follow your dreams, make a d20 company just like I did!" In fact, if I can be criticized it is perhaps for being TOO encouraging of people to join the d20 wave. I'm an attorney by day. Necromancer Games is my hobby. Its a nice luxury to be able to make pure gaming decisions for my company. I dont care if Necro makes money (other than to break even and pay the writers, luckily is does much much better than that; hmm perhaps following your heart and passion turns out to be the best business plan after all but I digress). So please dont suggest I fear competition or are scared of you. I couldnt care less. My advice has never been and never will be scare tactics. I think OSRIC is of questionable legality at best. That is my personal and individual legal opinion, as a lawyer. I'm familiar with the process and the document. I remember when you spread it around the OGL boards trying to get support for it and I said the same stuff privately that I am saying now. So accusing me of scare tactics is a bit silly. YMMV. And best of luck with that.

.......


All that behind me, Necro will definately be there to put the 1E meat in the 4E bun.

Clark

 

[Treebore]

Once again, this sounds to me like TLG is scared of something. You know Treebore, maybe they fear splitting the C&C customer base. The C&C product in many ways tries to hold a middle ground between 1Eers and 3Eers. If you allow for OSRIC discussion, this could drive a wedge between those who'd like to see C&C develop more toward 1E vs. those who want to see it develop more toward 3E or 2E (in all aspects really).

Why risk deviding your base?

No, I think it has more to do with legal advice they were given by a certain lawyer who also owns another D&D 3rd party publishing company. Who apparently put the fear of OSRIC into them some time prior to the 2006 GenCon. Or maybe the lawyers business partner conveyed the information/opinion to the Trolls at the 2006 GenCon, in the first day.

If OSRIC is so legally questionable I wonder why WOTC has yet to take any action? After about two years of being on the market? Maybe its because OSRIC, the rules themselves, are given away, or sold at cost when printed at Lulu?

Don't know for sure, but after WOTC acted so quickly when certain 3rd party publishers violated the OGL early on, I would think if OSRIC was illegal WOTC would have already shut OSRIC down. Especially since WOTC has been aware of OSRIC since day one of its announced existance.

 

[Uder]

Why start an arguement with people with there own publishing interests? If your looking to put alot of preasure on gaming companies and risk deviding the audiance, why not just do it yourself? Wether or not it would be contraversal or a challange, Infact, I'm interested in seeing you're well edited AD&D/OSRIC compatable products. Especially if they have convertability with C&C afterall.

 

[Valiant]

Believe me, it has nothing to do with competition. I'm the guy who stood on the street corner shouting "follow your dreams, make a d20 company just like I did!" In fact, if I can be criticized it is perhaps for being TOO encouraging of people to join the d20 wave. I'm an attorney by day. Necromancer Games is my hobby. Its a nice luxury to be able to make pure gaming decisions for my company. I dont care if Necro makes money (other than to break even and pay the writers, luckily is does much much better than that; hmm perhaps following your heart and passion turns out to be the best business plan after all but I digress). So please dont suggest I fear competition or are scared of you. I couldnt care less. My advice has never been and never will be scare tactics. I think OSRIC is of questionable legality at best. That is my personal and individual legal opinion, as a lawyer. I'm familiar with the process and the document. I remember when you spread it around the OGL boards trying to get support for it and I said the same stuff privately that I am saying now. So accusing me of scare tactics is a bit silly. YMMV. And best of luck with that.

.......


All that behind me, Necro will definately be there to put the 1E meat in the 4E bun.

Clark

Hey, it just sounded like scare tactics to me, and thats just IMHO.

You said: "All that behind me, Necro will definately be there to put the 1E meat in the 4E bun."

I see that as reason to be someone who does compete for the 1E dollar. Certainly there are 1E players who might want to try 4E (and will want a 1E style module to run), so OSRIC publishers will be your competition, if you see it or not.


Treebore, just because OSRIC may be considered illegal by TLG shouldn't be reason enough to not allow discussion of it. Here we are talking about OSRIC at ENworld, and certainly some administrators question its legality (its not like WOTC would try to shut TLG down for simply talking about OSRIC, right)...thats why I think there is more to it then legality.

BTW I agree with you, WOTC should have acted by now.

Uder wrote: -Why start an arguement with people with there own publishing interests?-

I'm not. I just don't like scare tactics (but I'll gladly retract that claim since ORCUS has clearifide his statement).