4E combat grind but not boring

[Shadeydm]

Just a question: Is there any chance your DM was deliberately overmatching you and giving you a chance to recognise it and run away? Because I think that that is one of the really good things about 4e-- there's enough room for error with the extra hp and such that you have the opportunity to see a situation going bad and try to escape.

In hindsight I would have to say yes that is a possibility since we all got emails that we have the option of waking up as prisoners or trying out new characters. I'm not convinced we could have escaped once the fight started.

But I believe without the terrible PC rolls (or that blasted orc cleric) we might have won.

 

[Obryn]

I can say for certain that I have had 2-hour combats in 4e, and they've left me vaguely unsettled. I even apologized to my players, but they responded, "No, this was great!" so I've stopped worrying so much.

Fortunately, these long fights were pretty climactic - one was vs. Kalarel in KotS, and the other was for clearing out the Duergar Citadel in one big, massive battle after some smart strategy from the PCs.

I don't get why everyone's getting so defensive. I love 4e, but its main fault (IMHO) is that combat can become a grind under some circumstances - low-level solo fights, mosters with too-high defenses, etc. There are many of ways to reduce the grind, and several other ways I as a DM can minimize it, but Shadeydm is hardly saying anything new or controversial here.

Me, I'll concentrate on the rest of what he said - and say, "I'm sorry it turned into a grindfest, but I'm glad you enjoyed it anyway!"

-O

 

[Jack99]

Yes because clearly statements such as I have fun playing the game and I like 4E paladin and that the Swordmages is my favorite 4E class of those which I have played for example are clearly meant as an attack on 4E, a game which I play weekly because I hate it so much /boggle

It seems like putting me on ignore might be in your best interest in light of my "hatred" of 4E...

Look mate, I never said you attacked 4e in your post. I merely had you pegged as someone who didn't fancy 4e. If I am wrong in that, I apologize for saying otherwise. My bad.

I do however stand by my statements regarding the encounter.

Cheers

 

[Allister]

The reason why I find 2+ so shocking is that it shouldn't be a regular occurence at all.

Unless you're fighting a Solo +5, most fights should easily fall under the 1 hour timeframe IMO...

 

[Zathraas]

Some additional details on the situation Shadeydm is talking about…..

Option to Retreat
Escape would have been tough as we were fighting in difficult terrain so movement was slow and even if a character chose to flee and was able to evade pursuit, we were behind enemy lines in the middle of very thick woods and even with pretty good Nature checks we were often getting lost. I don’t believe retreating was a high success option in this case.

Team NPC Clerics
The NPC clerics on our team opted to rush the enemy and as such neither lasted very long and neither one was able to give out any healing surges to other characters or each other before they were dieing. In this combat, they didn't really have much of an effect except to slow down an enemy or two for a couple of rounds at most.

Bad Rolls?
I disagree that terrible rolls were the issue. Most of the team hit plenty of times but as I mentioned before, at the end of the long combat we had killed only minions and a standard orc warrior type. The DM mentioned that the ogre and another enemy were about to fall over, but even if they did fall over, that still would leave the Eye of Gruumsh, the orc real cleric, the hobgoblin archer and one other warrior. As it was, the TPK’d party leaving 6 strong enemies alive at the end of the battle is not close in the least, so it I don't think bad rolls were a major factor.

2+ Hours
I really think part of the length of time is that we generally play slowly. The players have to constantly look up the same power they used only the turn before ("oh, wait, was that versus Reflex?"), we constantly have to look up rules and there is a LOT of discussion on what the next action will be, so I feel we as players are also to blame for the length of combat. Added to that is the constant joking around and mocking of other players which also takes its toll in time. That is in addition to the DM having to run 2 NPC clerics (well, not for long in this case) and 6 individual enemies plus 6 or so minions.

 

[jasonbostwick]

2+ Hours
I really think part of the length of time is that we generally play slowly. The players have to constantly look up the same power they used only the turn before ("oh, wait, was that versus Reflex?"), we constantly have to look up rules and there is a LOT of discussion on what the next action will be, so I feel we as players are also to blame for the length of combat.

Have you tried playing with power cards or some game aid like that?
If the players all have their powers written down (if not on cards, at least on a sheet or something), play goes much much faster, in my experience.

 

[Harr]

The reason why I find 2+ so shocking is that it shouldn't be a regular occurence at all.

Unless you're fighting a Solo +5, most fights should easily fall under the 1 hour timeframe IMO...

I wonder why you find it shocking, since he is clearly talking about a SINGLE combat, and has never stated that his combats regularly take 2+ hours. Nothing in this entire thread has made any kind of implication that this is a regular occurrence in his games.

Could it be you're replying to something that you would like to be replying to, instead of what you're actually replying to?

 

[Harr]

Look. 4e combats sometimes grind. It's a fact. It's something that's been posted by people over and over since, like, July (I know cause I was one of those people *and* I saw other people doing it as well), it's been confirmed and posted about in other threads by me and by other people on these forums, and other people on the WotC forums, and people on the RPG.net forums.

I write this because I see people here taking the attitude that if they can prove that THIS combat shouldn't have been a grind, or if they can prove that THIS combat was badly designed, then that PROVES that 4e combats don't grind. Sorry guys. For some people, people who are experienced, and people who have been playing 4e since it came out, and people who design good encounters, combat STILL grinds. Again, sorry, but that's that.

You might let the people who have this problem try to come together with other people who also have this problem and find ways to solve it, you might help the people who have this problem try to find solutions for it, but seriously, the whole "You actually don't really have this problem" angle? It's played. Sooo played.

 

[Felon]

Yes, and I was stating my opinion. But since there was like 10 (random numbers ftw) other people agreeing that the length of the encounter was due to the encounter being a very hard one, I fail to see why I am singled out.

And yet, this isn't the first post where you've been "singled out" for expressing your opinion just like everyone else. It's because you have the habit of delivering your opinion in a needlessly baiting manner, unlike everyone else.

Well, considering they had 2 extra clerics, and that the monsters had more surges than they are supposed to, it's quite normal that it lasts longer than normal combats. The DM made some changes, but those changes affected the duration of the combat. How is that a problem with the system?

Well, why should an overmatched encounter take longer than a balanced one? Intuitively, one-sided fights should wrap up faster.

Having said that, I must agree that "grind" has a pretty negative connotation. The OP portraying D&D combat is a "fun grind" is rather oxymoronic.