D&D (2024) 4e design in 5.5e ?

[Mordhau]

What are people's goals though? I can't parse that out?? Do people want a return to the 5 minute workday???

There was thread here not long ago when it was revealed that the vast majority of tables on here don't run traditional dungeon crawls, yet WotC with every edition seem to go "back to the dungeon".

As far as I can tell from what has been described (correct me if I'm wrong I'm not a viewer) Critical Role also doesn't run these types of games.

I think the general preference seems to be that the game should work in situations where the amount of combat is determined by the needs of the story or what the players decide to do and not by the needs of pacing.

But also just the general point that people play D&D in a range of different ways and the game really needs to be flexible enough to cater to that range.

I mean if there's one thing that seemed to put off huge amounts of people from 4e it was that it was just too finely tuned for a particular way of approaching the game that lots of people just didn't want to do.

 

[Teemu]

These potions your are taking about only came with Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, and that was already the beginning of WoTC efforts to win back 3.5e people. Doesn't really count since they are not in the original spirit of the edition.

Uh, what? They came out just 3 years into 4e. They’ve existed for over a decade. Lol. They don’t count now? Does Xanathar’s content “count” for 5e since it came out even later into the edition’s lifecycle?

 

[MichaelSomething]

Maybe.

I've never seen the 5-minute workday as being the massive issue some others seem to have with it, as in reality it's what the adventurers would do if they could.

I agree! Didn't the Dungeons of old have built in deterrents to constantly resting?? I also remember reading that in the games of old, the session was over as soon as you rested??

Isn't the DM suppose to provide time pressure? Like an approaching army, an evil wizard plotting, or your milk spoiling??

 

[overgeeked]

One of the strengths of 5e design is that, despite years of play, there aren't really any stand out examples of class imbalance. Yeah, yeah, there is some talk about caster/non-caster, but, largely, the classes are pretty darn close in play.

To me, that means they got the underlying math pretty good in 5e. So, building on that chassis becomes a lot easier.

LOL. Wow. Sure. If you ignore that the paladin is explicitly more powerful than the ranger and the monk. Artificer is subpar at best. Twilight and Peace clerics are broken. People screamed for years about how bad the ranger was and it was finally fixed with Tasha’s. The echo knight is busted cheese. The hexblade is so good it dominated power gamer builds for years, still does, but to a lesser extent. “Pretty darn close.” What a joke.

 

[Hussar]

most modern players don’t want a challenge they just want endless easy wins

And you are basing this on what?

You do realize just how dismissive this sounds right?

 

[NaturalZero]

LOL. Wow. Sure. If you ignore that the paladin is explicitly more powerful than the ranger and the monk. Artificer is subpar at best. Twilight and Peace clerics are broken. People screamed for years about how bad the ranger was and it was finally fixed with Tasha’s. The echo knight is busted cheese. The hexblade is so good it dominated power gamer builds for years, still does, but to a lesser extent. “Pretty darn close.” What a joke.

Don't you touch my hexblade3/echoknight17!

 

[Mordhau]

I agree! Didn't the Dungeons of old have built in deterrents to constantly resting?? I also remember reading that in the games of old, the session was over as soon as you rested??

The dungeons of old had their own counterbalances.

• The games didn't necessarily stop becoming more dangerous because you were rested (you might still be killed easily)
• Travelling through the dungeon took time and risked wandering monsters so going out and resting and coming back (when you didn't really need to) didn't necessarily put you in a better position.

Isn't the DM suppose to provide time pressure? Like an approaching army, an evil wizard plotting, or your milk spoiling??

I've never understood this. Doesn't this get old really fast?

 

[overgeeked]

What are people's goals though? I can't parse that out?? Do people want a return to the 5 minute workday???

As generalizations, most players will do whatever they can to minimize any challenge the game presents while it’s the DM‘s job to make the game as challenging as possible without dooming the group.

So if the mechanics of the game permit a 5-minute work day, they players will inevitably push for it. In my experience, the players would rather drop the quest than risk going into even the easiest fight with anything less than 100% of their resources. Which is likely why 4E shifted the majority of limited resources to encounter-based. To minimize the 5MWD. 5E really doesn't do anything to discourage the practice. Casters are back to mostly daily resources so going nova on one fight then long rest then nova on a second fight, etc is a dumb and cheesy thing to do, put absolutely what some players push for.

This is one reason why I think D&D should stop trying to appeal to everyone. Design the game and those who like it will play it. Those who don’t, won’t. As it stands, 5E is trying to appeal to everyone who ever played and not doing a great job delivering any particular style of play. Just look at all the holes 3PP have had to fill.

 

[overgeeked]

And you are basing this on what?

About 37 years of playing and running RPGs. There is a clear and distinct shift in play expectations between AD&D2E and 3E.

You do realize just how dismissive this sounds right?

It’s not meant to be. It’s merely my experience playing and running RPGs.

 

[niklinna]

Which makes players happy because the game is easy mode and DMs are frustrated because they can’t challenge the party without going way out of spec. D&D should stop trying to be all things to all people.

Well, that's a problem when both players & DMs are necessary for the game to happen at all!