D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Victim]

Corrupted Good and Neutral, you mean?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's pretty cool. Me likey! I wonder what kind of devil is in that sketch.
-blarg

It's a bar-lgura demon.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

As a Mystara fan, I've got to say this sounds similar (at least in the small parts we are given here) to some of Mentzer's cosmology from the Gold Box Immortals set. Specifically, the "deific abodes" in an Astral Sea fits with Mentzer's Astral filled with myriad infinite Outer Planes.

Even the bit about the Abyss and demons could fit in with the Sphere of Entropy cosmology of the Gold Box.

Between this and the "Points of Light" notion (which strongly resembles the campaign worlds of the early D&D/AD&D modules), I'm wondering if we might see a resurgence of the Cook/Moldvay Known World in 4E.

 

[Simm]

Originally posted by wizards.com
What does a clearer distinction between the two major species of fiends mean for your game? If you need a devious fiend that cares about souls and works on long-term schemes, use a devil. However, wholesale slaughter, pointless suffering, and terrifying devastation call for a demon. A villain or even a player character might bargain with devils, but those who conjure demons do so only to wreak havoc on their enemies. In short, the unambiguous division of the fiends is another way 4th Edition makes the game easier to design for and to play.

Oddly enough, a quick cruise through the Monster Manual suggest the opposite is the case.

All from the 3.5 MM Babaus... are devious, forming careful plans before going into plans- always making sure that they do not have to engage in a fair fight

[Balor] are the masterminds of schemes to seize power and destroy the innocent

glabrezu tempt victims into ruin but lure their prey with power and wealth

Mariliths are generals and tacticians, often rivaling balors in sheer briliance and cunning

[Quasits] are often found serveing chaotic evil spell casters as counselors and spies

Succubi... live to tempt mortals

Of the twelve demons in the monster manual six are described as tempters, tacticians or otherwise cunning.

The only similarly described demon is the imp which is more or less a quasit by another name. Pit fiends for example are described are "masters of creating fear"

My worry is that while demons and devils are both equally able to ravage the world, demons are now being discourage from playing a role which I, and the MM, consider them more suitable for than devils. I think this is a mistake for the reason above and because I really like demons and devils just don't give me that same evil feel when I look at them.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Elemental/terrain associations for the classic D&D demons actually exist in the old BD&D Immortals Set. They don't use the (A)D&D names, but it's pretty clear from the descriptions which is which:

Good catch- I'd forgotten that. Just fits in with my Known World/4E theme even more.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As a Mystara fan, I've got to say this sounds similar (at least in the small parts we are given here) to some of Mentzer's cosmology from the Gold Box Immortals set. Specifically, the "deific abodes" in an Astral Sea fits with Mentzer's Astral filled with myriad infinite Outer Planes.

Even the bit about the Abyss and demons could fit in with the Sphere of Entropy cosmology of the Gold Box.

Between this and the "Points of Light" notion (which strongly resembles the campaign worlds of the early D&D/AD&D modules), I'm wondering if we might see a resurgence of the Cook/Moldvay Known World in 4E.

This is the most interesting news on 4E fluff I've heard yet. Perhaps Necromancer Games will no longer have the monopoly on "first edition feel."

 

[JamesM]

This is the most interesting news on 4E fluff I've heard yet. Perhaps Necromancer Games will no longer have the monopoly on "first edition feel."

Except this doesn't feel like first edition at all. As others have pointed out, it sounds a great deal more like Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology, which was admittedly a variant on and massive simplification of the 1E cosmology, but the two are not identical by a long shot.

 

[Ms Frost]

I wonder what kind of devil is in that sketch.
-blarg

I think it may be a malebranche.

 

[HeinorNY]

WOW! It's good to have some of the 1st edition feel back!
If they put that lot of background work and attention to most of MM monsters it will be a great edition.
Is it just me or all the fluff released so far is buying you too even more than the crunch previews?

 

[Sammael]

/me shakes head sadly.

You know, the fluff presented in that article would have been very nice... in an alternative campaign setting.

Oh well. I guess I should be prepared for the fact that huge amounts of pages in the 4E core rulebooks will be worthless to me, since I tend to, you know, maintain compatibility between my campaigns. I guess this is great for those who are doing a full reset for their games for 4E, but I am just not going to throw away years of my work and replace all I know about the Great Wheel (which, contrary to what the 4E designers are saying, has just as much flavor and distinction) with this stuff.