D&D 4E 4E Dragons - Where's the beef?

[Tellerve]

Well, the template is for a standard or elite being changed into an elite or a solo. To my knowledge, there are no XP rules for changing a solo into an "elite solo".


Take a level 6 Young Blue Dragon.

It has decent attacks, most of which (except the breath weapon) average 10 points of damage or even less. 4th level PCs have ~32 to 45 hits points. So, it will take a while for it to eat through that many hit points (~190), not including PC heal spells.

Put a Wizard template on it and it can do Web. It can do Dimension Door. It can do Icy Rays (it already has the equivalent of Shock Sphere at will). It gets 58 more hit points. It gets +2 Will and +2 to saves.

You have to remember to adjust the Wizard powers not by its Int, but by its level and monster type. Damage is modified by Int, but not to hit. So, it would be 6th level Artilery using an attack against other defenses that affect multiple creatures: +9 to hit with Web and Icy Rays. That's an addition Daily area attack and an additional Encounter area attack that does not force it to fall back on using Lightning Burst or Draconic Fury when its other powers are gone or not recharged.

This dragon goes from being damaging nasty to a bit controlling damaging nasty.

It is definitely stronger.


But, if I double the XP like a standard to an elite or multiply by 2.5 for an elite to a solo, I do think that is too much XP. It is definitely not as strong as two Blue Dragons, but that is the XP that those would give. So basically, I add the XP of an elite and a solo together (or as if it were 2 levels higher for XP). In this example, XP goes from 1250 to 1750.

It gets additional powers, additional hit points, and a boost to Will. But, that is not as significant as a true elite or solo. It does not have 2x hit points, it does not have +2 to three defenses, etc.

So, it is not worth 2x or 2.5x XP.

I'm interested in this as well, but have some questions.

Do you add the +2 on top of the solo's already +5 to save?

Also, where do you get 58 hps? Isn't it +6 per level + con, so 36+18 for 54? Maybe just typo on your part? Do you also give it the additional action point?

Thanks,

 

[D'karr]

Also, where do you get 58 hps? Isn't it +6 per level + con, so 36+18 for 54? Maybe just typo on your part?

Thanks,

Are 4 additional Hit Points really going to matter? This is the kind of stuff that you can easily wing, without getting bogged down with the details.

 

[DracoSuave]

Every character death I've seen in D&D was at the hands of a dragon.

Every time I've run a dragon, the PCs -hate- that dragon and it made them feel like they were fighting for their lives.

A 15th level Dragon has +12 to hit/+12 to defenses on average vs your level 3 PCs, and hundreds of hit points. Who cares if the party doesn't get instantly hit... they can't do a thing -to- the dragon, and they can't do a thing to -stop- the dragon.

Instead of being instantly killed, they get to sit there for a handful of rounds while the dragon reminds them of how -powerless- they are before devouring them one by one. It's a slow, sadistic, evil death.

It's, arguably, even -worse- than a onepunch kill.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just my opinion of course, but I do not think it was an oversight. Solo's usually already have a bunch of abilities, and a few more will definitely make them stronger, it's really not that bad. Although obviously, certain combinations can be positively lethal, I imagine.

I'll have to check it out this evening, but if the Dragon got an additional action point, an additional bonus to a save, a boost to a defense, extra powers and extra hit points, then it is definitely (IMO) an oversight.

The extra hit points alone should be worth an XP boost.

 

[Tellerve]

Are 4 additional Hit Points really going to matter? This is the kind of stuff that you can easily wing, without getting bogged down with the details.

Very true, my Dnd Type A personality is getting the better of me. Excuse my condition.

 

[dnddays]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the first things mentioned in virtually every D&D Player's Handbook -- of any edition -- that your characters is a hero and not your run of the mill person. Seems to me that a hero should be able to get a couple of valiant swings (and misses) on any creature short of a god without being killed outright. Sure, in prior editions your character would just die in round one, but where's the heroism in that? Where's the adventure in getting wiped in 5 seconds? It's not fun and it's not cinematic or even climactic, so why preserve something that made D&D more like a video game than a RPG? If I wanna watch my character die in one hit I could run my 1st level Warrior to Twilight Grove and 'fight' the dragon there.

 

[Jack99]

I'll have to check it out this evening, but if the Dragon got an additional action point, an additional bonus to a save, a boost to a defense, extra powers and extra hit points, then it is definitely (IMO) an oversight.

The extra hit points alone should be worth an XP boost.

Sorry. I guess I should have been more clear. I assumed (my bad) people knew what dragon I was talking about. It doesn't get anything extra, besides the extra powers. It's already a solo, so the other stuff can't improve beyond what it already has. I mean, that's my logic anyway.

While having those powers is obviously better than not having them, I am not sure it warrants a change in XP. YMMV OFC.

 

[Herschel]

How is a true statement a dig pray tell?

Characters die much less often in 4E thanks to things like...

The feeling for 3E was that for the first 5-8 levels, if you die, you start a new character...

So yes, the viewpoint of 4E handing players tickets to 30 is pretty much spot on for anyone comeing from previous editions. Call that a "dig" if you want, but I believe I've backed that up, and if "truth" is a "dig", then maybe it's you that is seeing a problem with 4E.

There is no "truth" to that statement.

I killed off seven characters (four, then three) to begin a 4E campaign with nothing more than tactics and level-appropriate groups of Kobolds for the first decent encounter. (and used DM fiat to not make them TPK TWICE) In my over two decades of running "save or die" and a crit chart in 1E/2E I never once approached that level of carnage.

The early level HP bump in 4E does give you a bit more cushion as a DM to throw things at a party but it doesn't save PCs from getting mulched in when odd things happens.

In other words: For PCs, regardless of edition, dumb = dead.

In 4E, the flukes have been minimized a bit.

 

[Skallgrim]

Reading this thread, I started looking at this question from another perspective.

Rather than looking at the dragon and asking "Why don't the rules reflect what I envision the dragon doing?", you might ask "What does I envision the dragon doing, based upon these rules?".

The reason, I suspect, that the Adult Red Dragon doesn't breath down a fiery holocaust, immediately incinerating the 3rd level PCs isn't because the designers don't envision such gameplay, or don't wish you to engage in level +9 fights.

I suspect that it is because they no longer envision dragon's breath as being a fiery holocaust that simply reduces the opposition to ash. Dragon breath is now a fairly wide ranged, usually accurate, moderately damaging ranged attack. It can typically be used several times in a fight (thanks to the recharge) and always used if the dragon is hard pressed (thanks to the recharge on bloodied). It simply isn't SUPPOSED to be this Godzilla style nuclear holocaust that it used to be (I remember when a red dragon did damage equal to its hit points with the breath weapon!). It's simply one of MANY different attributes of a dragon, not the crowning "hit point vacuum" for the dragon.

There may be all sorts of game designery reasons why the damage expression isn't astronomical, and many people have touched upon those. However, I don't think you should underestimate the effect the visualization has on the rules. Dragon's aren't deadly just because they swoop down and kill everybody on round one with their opening gambit. They are engines of destruction incarnate, not a thrown bomb.

Kudos also to DracoSuave for his persuasive and vivid description of how terrifying and evil a powerful dragon should appear. That image is different, and intentionally different, from a relatively fragile flying lizard with a nasty breath weapon.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry. I guess I should have been more clear. I assumed (my bad) people knew what dragon I was talking about. It doesn't get anything extra, besides the extra powers. It's already a solo, so the other stuff can't improve beyond what it already has. I mean, that's my logic anyway.

While having those powers is obviously better than not having them, I am not sure it warrants a change in XP. YMMV OFC.

Yes, I see which dragon you are talking about.

I have to disagree with you though.

Minor action Warlocks Curse. +1 AC and some PC in the party will be taking an extra D6 damage with his other attacks and if that PC goes to 0 hit points, he can teleport.

Minor action Lurid Glare at Range 10. He can easily slide a foe into his area effect attacks on multiple rounds.

Standard action, minor sustain Curse of the Black Frost at Range 10.

Standard action Eyebite go invisible against one foe.

It's obviously a tougher foe and has better at will options while it is waiting for its powers to recharge. The PC Wizard or other squishy in the back is going to be toast when the Dragon teleports or flies over and does Curse of the Black Forest plus other attacks against the PC.

Not as tough as if they had used all of the class template rules, but still tough enough. Easily as powerful as the 11th level Black Dragon in the MM. The main difference is that the Black Dragon gets ~20% extra HP for being in Paragon level (if we were talking a level other than 10 or 20, it would be much closer between level x + class powers and level x+1).

As far as I can tell, a heroic level powers only class template is worth +1 level of XP, a paragon level powers only class template is worth +2 level of XP, and an epic level powers only class template is worth +3 levels of XP. Adding all of the class template features (i.e. action point, extra hit points, bonus to save, etc.) is worth another +1 level of XP.

An Epic level dragon that can heal itself multiple times with the Cleric class template will be awesome. Clarion Call of the Astral Sea. Ok, let's restart most of this encounter for the Dragon, but not the PCs. No way its worth the same XP as the same dragon without the Cleric powers.

I do think it is much easier to only add the powers though and I will probably be doing that. It's not that I want the dragons to be so much more powerful, it's that I want them to have magical abilities.

But one nice thing about doing this is that the Dragon gains a few synergy bonuses, but it does not increase all to hits and damage and hit points, etc. like a higher level Dragon would. It's much more capable, but still in the to hit range of the PCs.

And such creatures FEEL like Dragons to me. If current Dragons cause dread in the players, these creatures will terrify them. An Epic battle with a Dragon that has Clarion Call of the Astral Sea will be remembered by my group for years (that is if we ever get to Epic level ).