4E is for casuals, D&D is d0med

[Lorion]

It is D&D. They are not.

I'm quite serious.

Exactly. It's got brand recognition. You'll ALWAYS find people to play. Try that with FUDGE.

 

[Kichwas]

There are reasons to slam 4E, but this isn't one of them.

"OMFG, they've turned it into a game for casuals, my raiding guild is doomed! DOOMED! DOOMED I SAY!"

...

Yeah... this kind of complain -IS- the complaint that gets posted -EVERY FREAKING TIME- an MMO gets a patch of any kind, or even worse, an expansion...

Let's find something better to criticize, please.

'Only for casuals' sounds so much like MMO-QQing.

 

[Intense_Interest]

The only people who throw on the "Casual" label on people are the ones that want to be labeled as "Supercool"/"Hardcore".

4E isn't "casual", its just a well-designed system that has a smoother learning curve and better base-level assumptions and balance concerns. If a non-competitive game like 3E requires Optimization and System Mastery, it isn't "Hardcore", its "Badly designed".

"4E is Casual" is the new "THAC0 kept the riff-raff out."

 

[WhatGravitas]

Let's find something better to criticize, please.

'Only for casuals' sounds so much like MMO-QQing.

You mean 4E critics are like MMORPGs!?

Cheers, LT.

 

[Kichwas]

Well I did note, there are a lot of good reasons to slam 4E, for actual concrete things in or missing from the books, but this just isn't one of them.

All 'for casuals' really means is 'its appealing to an audience not defined by people exactly like me.'

 

[Mercule]

The only people who throw on the "Casual" label on people are the ones that want to be labeled as "Supercool"/"Hardcore".

4E isn't "casual", its just a well-designed system that has a smoother learning curve and better base-level assumptions and balance concerns. If a non-competitive game like 3E requires Optimization and System Mastery, it isn't "Hardcore", its "Badly designed".

"4E is Casual" is the new "THAC0 kept the riff-raff out."

This.

Who cares if it's "casual"? Is it fun?

Note: There is no "yeah, but". There is either "yes" or "no".

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Noobs still won't put in the effort to learn a game with a 300+ page rulebook. Not going to happen.

I will take issue with that for two reasons. First, your talking about casual gamers, not newbs. I learned how to play D&D 'Cold'. Having never before played and having no friends who played, I learned how to play D&D by buying the books and reading them.

The second point is that a Noob / Casual Player will sit at a table and play the game if someone can bring them up to speed quickly. And what does a Noob need to learn to play 4th edition? If you hand them a pre-generated character, they only need to learn 7 things.

1) Nearly every roll will be 1d20 + Lvl / 2 + Modifiers.
2) Their character AC, and Fort / Ref / Will Defense
3) About 5-6 Class powers (At will / Encounter / Daily / Inherent class features)
4) The character can perform a Minor / Move / Standard action every round
5) How to use an Action Point
6) Healing Surges and 2nd Wind
7) How to make a saving throw (1-10 bad, 11 - 20 good)

If you are going to do a 'cold bootstrap' of the player, and have them create their character from scratch, they need to learn a little bit more.

7) Race and Class Selection
8) Weapon selection and Proficiency modifiers
9) Skill, Feat and Class power selection.

And if the Newb is the first guy of his circle of friends to buy the books and learn the game:
X) How to DM.

Every other element of the game is going to be handled by the Dm (triggering Opportunity Attacks, implementing combat advantage, and the like).

Pure Casual gamers will never learn the game cold. But for both casual gamers and dedicated newbs, this edition is probably the easiest to learn. There is not 100+ pages of spells to sift through. There is no need to figure out what your iterative attacks are. Learning how to 'shift' is easier than learning how to use 5 ft Step. Grab is easier than Grapple.

And the work of running the game in play is also easier. No tracking of spell durations. All effects are ongoing until you save. No tracking of HP for pure cannon fodder, assuming you used minions. You have, for the first time, clear directives on how to create a level appropriate encounter, as well as guidelines on how to ensure that the monster is appropriate. (chose a total XP appropriate to the level of the party. use monsters close in level to the players). No need to count rounds until a rechargeable ability is used. Just roll a dice and if it hits high enough, you can use it.

Between 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition, 4th appears to be the easiest to learn so far. Having never played anything prior to 1st edition, I cannot speak to the ease of learning for those.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Treebore]

My feelings on 3e VS.4e are thus; In 3e your imagination was limited only by the ruleset, in 4e the ruleset is limited only by your imagination. Just because something isn't printed in the one of the three core rulebooks dosen't mean it isn't possible. The ruleset is simple, yet comprehensive, enough to become intuitive. Which in turn opens the game up to limitless possibilities gameplay wise. Which I think is the true genious driving 4E D&D.

As a DM who more often than not ended up "winging" large portions of his campaigns, mostly because my players would often do things I could never have expected, I welcome 4E with open arms. For when that situation occurs now, I'll no longer have to stop the game and look for some obscure rule. I can simply keep the game going and in doing so keep myself and group entertained.

Holy smokes! Why didn't anyone tell me that 4E is a clone of C&C? Is it easily compatible with every edition of D&D too?

 

[TerraDave]

People still post on usenet?!

There still is a usenet. Weird.

 

[Andor]

This.

Who cares if it's "casual"? Is it fun?

Note: There is no "yeah, but". There is either "yes" or "no".

Sometimes it's fun to play checkers or Carcassone. Othertimes it's fun to play Advanced Civ or Age of Rennessance.

I'll drive 30 min to play the first couple of games. I'll drive a lot longer to play the others.

It is D&D. They are not.

I'm quite serious.

It has the D&D name and brand recognition. Opinions seem to be split on if it's still D&D though. I haven't played it yet so I can't say one way or the other myself, but they seem to be a lot more "It's just not D&D anymore." opinions floating around than I recall from the 3e days. There certainly were some very vocal 3e detractors, even here, but percentage wise 4e seems to have turned off an alarmingly large number of posters.

The name is nothing to sneer at though. I recall sitting in the big bar on 2 at origins and argueing with Eric from Wizard's Attic who felt that 3e should be inelligeable for the 'Best new game of the year' because it was D&D even though (as I said) it was a different game with a different system written by different people for a different company.

It was a new game but it still felt like D&D to me though, and most people agreed.