D&D 4E 4e mid encounter fatigue

[vagabundo]

This is something that I posted in the news announcement thread, but it might be missed. Anyone else found this in their preview games?

We did find that once the daily/encounter powers had been blown through (in our case, during the first round of the dragon fight), we all simply repeated the one at-will power that seemed to work best against it. Our hope is that higher level PCs will have more options at that stage of the proceedings, because it did become a tad repetitive. As Tira the Warlock, I was simply using Eyebite every round given that the dragon's weakest defence was its Will score.

This is something I have noticed in my own preview games. At this level once the encounters/dailies/action points are done, there is little reason for a lot of shifting around. People tend to stick were they are and it becomes a slugfest.

I'm going to handle this in the encounter design. A new section called Mid-Point Twist. Around the middle of the encounters something will happen: a change in the terrain, new opponents arrive, old opponents change behaviour (e.g. disengage to regroup).

I'm doing a skill challenge for next weeks game (details ). The should be a combat encounter at the end of the skill challenge, if all goes well for the players, so I'll try the Twist(tm) there.

 

[Shroomy]

I've seen other examples of that happening, but I think it has more to do with the power disparity between the PCs and the level 4 solo monster that is the black dragon. At their level, the math works out that the dragon can't really TPK right away while the PCs can't really hurt it effectively. Its definitely a lesson that we will all have to learn as we design encounters for 4e.

 

[KevinF]

I think that kind of slugfest that we're seeing halfway through long fights in 4E, were the norm in 3.5.

It seems that most of us enjoy the focus on tactical movement that is part of 4E, but as DM's we need to learn to move the villains around and have them constantly trying to gain an advantage somewhere. If the villains move, the players will most likely respond in kind.

 

[vagabundo]

I've seen other examples of that happening, but I think it has more to do with the power disparity between the PCs and the level 4 solo monster that is the black dragon. At their level, the math works out that the dragon can't really TPK right away while the PCs can't really hurt it effectively. Its definitely a lesson that we will all have to learn as we design encounters for 4e.

I think that drew out the problem more, but I have seen it with my, supposedly, balanced encounters. It is only a few rounds and not very monotonous, but it stands in stark contrast to the beginning of the encounter.

I think that kind of slugfest that we're seeing halfway through long fights in 4E, were the norm in 3.5.

It seems that most of us enjoy the focus on tactical movement that is part of 4E, but as DM's we need to learn to move the villains around and have them constantly trying to gain an advantage somewhere. If the villains move, the players will most likely respond in kind.

Yeah I definitely remember these from 3e.

And I do think it is a DM problem. Thats why I'm thinking of doing something eventful halfway through the encounter. I'm going to mess around over the next few 4e sessions and see what works.

Maybe the DMG will have some good info on handling this.

 

[deathdonut]

I think this may be a problem specific to the massive-hp solo fights like the dragon.

I definately ran into it, but I think it was a result of the dragon being too fat and the refreshing encounter abilities not being "event changing".

If the fear ability had been refresh or the dragon had had some knockback/prone abilities built into it the combat would have been a bit more dynamic. As it was, the symptoms were exactly what you describe.

The "mid-point twist" method is definately a good way to shake things up, but it's still largely a one-shot injection. Granted, that may be enough.

I'll probably pay a bit more attention to this problem in future solo-boss style fights and make sure there's some controller-style effects that refresh or a more dynamic environment. An on-going skill challenge is another method to use as long as it doesn't get too repetative.

Good observation!

 

[Novem5er]

Aye, I've had this concern too. However, it really depends on the character class. In my test run, the Cleric seemed like he had an interesting choice to make every round, while the Ranger used his basic attack (with Hunter's Quarry) every round. Still, every character had more choices than their 3e counterparts, and I know every character will have more choices as they level up. However, I still have a lingering concern that characters wont have enough powers, even at mid or high levels... but that's probably unfounded.

At least in the early levels, I think the combat fatigue issue will be best addressed by good encounter design. First, combat's should not last more than a few rounds (level 4 Solos, aside). Secondly, terrain should be placed so that the PCs and monsters don't all just rush to the center of the room on the first round, and hack it out from there. Thirdly, mid-encounter events could really spice things up, be they reinforcements or a sudden change in the environment.

For longer fights with a Solo that's a few levels higher than the PCs, I wouldn't be opposed to a mid-encounter break that actually recharges an encounter ability. For instance, versus Scalegloom, what if 6 rounds into the encounter, the dragon tail-slaps a column of stone that falls over and forces everyone to scatter and reposition? Maybe that could provide a one-round break that recharges a single encounter power of each player's choice.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

And I do think it is a DM problem. Thats why I'm thinking of doing something eventful halfway through the encounter. I'm going to mess around over the next few 4e sessions and see what works.

Maybe the DMG will have some good info on handling this.

It sounds like a decent idea - once in a while. The problem I could see is that the players assess the situation when the encounter first begins, use their encounter powers, then when the "twist" comes, they are annoyed because they have already used up powers that would have been better for the twist. If it becomes a regular thing, you might find your players hoarding their encounter powers waiting for the twist. If it never comes, then they will have made the fight more difficult for themselves.

 

[Inyssius]

This sounds like the reason why monsters are getting abilities that come into play once they've been "bloodied". I haven't played any preview games, but... does the dragon not have any of those? Are they just too minor to make an impact?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I think that it is only this solo fight that becomes static. Almost every version of it that I have seen takes place in what is effectively a bare room. Fights that will last a long time should be places in dynamic rooms or in rooms where combatants can make use of terrain. This is the case in most long fights in action movies. (Man, would I love to have a fight in 4E that is something like the first gunfight in Hard Boiled!)

 

[vagabundo]

I think this may be a problem specific to the massive-hp solo fights like the dragon.

I definately ran into it, but I think it was a result of the dragon being too fat and the refreshing encounter abilities not being "event changing".

If the fear ability had been refresh or the dragon had had some knockback/prone abilities built into it the combat would have been a bit more dynamic. As it was, the symptoms were exactly what you describe.

The "mid-point twist" method is definately a good way to shake things up, but it's still largely a one-shot injection. Granted, that may be enough.

I'll probably pay a bit more attention to this problem in future solo-boss style fights and make sure there's some controller-style effects that refresh or a more dynamic environment. An on-going skill challenge is another method to use as long as it doesn't get too repetative.

Good observation!

I think this issue is proportional to HP, the more HPs the more pronounced the problem.

I think your right with more dynamic environments, even without a mid-point shake-up if there is a preprogrammed dynamic, like a roving trap or environmental effect, it would keep people moving and that changes the tactics and makes things difficult. It seems to occur when movement stops, the slugfest begins.

Aye, I've had this concern too. However, it really depends on the character class. In my test run, the Cleric seemed like he had an interesting choice to make every round, while the Ranger used his basic attack (with Hunter's Quarry) every round. Still, every character had more choices than their 3e counterparts, and I know every character will have more choices as they level up. However, I still have a lingering concern that characters wont have enough powers, even at mid or high levels... but that's probably unfounded.

At least in the early levels, I think the combat fatigue issue will be best addressed by good encounter design. First, combat's should not last more than a few rounds (level 4 Solos, aside). Secondly, terrain should be placed so that the PCs and monsters don't all just rush to the center of the room on the first round, and hack it out from there. Thirdly, mid-encounter events could really spice things up, be they reinforcements or a sudden change in the environment.

For longer fights with a Solo that's a few levels higher than the PCs, I wouldn't be opposed to a mid-encounter break that actually recharges an encounter ability. For instance, versus Scalegloom, what if 6 rounds into the encounter, the dragon tail-slaps a column of stone that falls over and forces everyone to scatter and reposition? Maybe that could provide a one-round break that recharges a single encounter power of each player's choice.

Your right, encounter planning is the key, here. A few quick options/ideas thrown into the encounter design will make a big difference here.

The column idea is interesting, maybe it would bring down the ceiling and it would take a few minutes for the "heroes" to scramble over the rubble and track down the dragon again. Who, in the meantime, has recharged all encounter powers, as they have, and has a nasty surprise waiting for them.