D&D 4E 4e Monster Design

[keterys]

I've actually had some luck with that too, though I haven't done it unilaterally. But I'll have a big battle where PCs can kill a minion with a minor action by commanding their allies, or similar effect.

As a general rule, hmm... that's quite interesting. Could probably use lots and lots of them that way

 

[Joshua Randall]

It only works for certain PCs, though. I have characters who never have enough minors to spare already -- giving me another thing to do with a minor would just lead me to cry.

 

[Viking Bastard]

As a general rule, hmm... that's quite interesting. Could probably use lots and lots of them that way

I use minions to a) eat up party resources, b) get in the PCs' way and c) let them feel like awesome action heroes.

A few sessions ago they mowed through a sea of zombies to get to the necromancer who raised them. They went completely nova and ended up killing nearly 60 of them in four rounds. Then they smacked the necromancer around until he agreed to turn the rest of the zombies to their graves.

It only works for certain PCs, though. I have characters who never have enough minors to spare already -- giving me another thing to do with a minor would just lead me to cry.

I just made it a minor so that if you do nothing else during the turn, you can kill three. Minions are also auto killed by all area attacks (no roll needed, unless it shares it with a beefier type of monster). Generally, they don't use a Standard to attack a standard monster, while killing a minion with their minor.

 

[S'mon]

Rather than toughening up minions, I made them weaker. I like throwing buttloads of minions at the party, requiring them to hack and slash through swarms of them, but I find the actual swarm rules unsatisfying for hordes of humanoid-ish critters (although I find them fine for swarms of rats or insects).

But this bogs down play, of course. So I made it a minor action to kill a minion. All you have to do is narrate it: "I run after the fleeing necromancer, chop this zombie's head off and kick this one down into the pit."

Do you give XP for minions, or at all?

Personally I find a damage threshold (half to bloody) works great for me; my main concern is to avoid the feeling of dissociation generated by the normal minion rules, where they don't feel 'real'. Rolling damage vs everybody is a lot less immersion breaking and I don't find it slows down play.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Do you give XP for minions, or at all?

I do, but I just approximate it depending on how difficult I found the encounter. What do you think would make a good rule, 3-4 'sub-minions' per minion?

I have so far only rolled out these sub-minions four times and I don't have a great handle on judging the difficulty yet. The second time I threw them at the party (a horde of bow wielding goblins) the party was quickly overwhelmed. The ranged attacks hit them hard. I think that next time I want to simulate a hail of arrows like that, I'll do it as ongoing damage (maybe with a save for half damage).

Personally I find a damage threshold (half to bloody) works great for me; my main concern is to avoid the feeling of dissociation generated by the normal minion rules, where they don't feel 'real'. Rolling damage vs everybody is a lot less immersion breaking and I don't find it slows down play.

Yeah, I also do this: I use 'mooks' when I want a quick skirmish rather than a horde, using a simplified version of the hit box rules. Go down in 1-2 hits, but do standard damage.

And while I really liked minions as a DM at first, I quickly found that my players hated them--they feel cheated of their damage rolls. But they don't seem to mind the sub-minions and mooks.

 

[S'mon]

And while I really liked minions as a DM at first, I quickly found that my players hated them--they feel cheated of their damage rolls. But they don't seem to mind the sub-minions and mooks.

Yeah, I think your sub-minions idea potentially looks good as a narrative device, whereas I don't think WoTC RAW minions work well at what they're supposed to do. As far as XP for sub-minons goes, they seem more a complicating factor to a regular encounter than a threat in themselves, so a bonus to the normal award might be appropriate. Something around 1 standard monster's worth for 10 of them might work. But you don't want them doing 10 1/2 dmg ranged attacks, as you say, either ongoing damage or 1 attack per PC at start of each PC's turn per group of 4 might work?

 

[Ferghis]

13th Age uses an idea I'd seen used before it - mooks have a certain # of hit points each, and all of the minions together have a hp pool. So if there are 4 10hp minions, you have 40 hp of minions and you drop one for every 10 damage dealt.

Even if very occasionally that means that a PC beheads one, sending its head flying into another one (knocking it out), at which point 2 others shriek in fear, drop their weapons, and flee.

I love this idea. I'm going to pass it to my DM.

 

[Ferghis]

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[D'karr]

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[AbdulAlhazred]

I do, but I just approximate it depending on how difficult I found the encounter. What do you think would make a good rule, 3-4 'sub-minions' per minion?

I have so far only rolled out these sub-minions four times and I don't have a great handle on judging the difficulty yet. The second time I threw them at the party (a horde of bow wielding goblins) the party was quickly overwhelmed. The ranged attacks hit them hard. I think that next time I want to simulate a hail of arrows like that, I'll do it as ongoing damage (maybe with a save for half damage).



Yeah, I also do this: I use 'mooks' when I want a quick skirmish rather than a horde, using a simplified version of the hit box rules. Go down in 1-2 hits, but do standard damage.

And while I really liked minions as a DM at first, I quickly found that my players hated them--they feel cheated of their damage rolls. But they don't seem to mind the sub-minions and mooks.

Yeah, well, artillery minions are notoriously vicious, even at high levels. With normal minions you can get 4x the action economy vs normal monsters. Their attacks are weaker, but not THAT much weaker. Minions rely on the fact that they'll rarely all get in even one blow for balance. If they're all arty then that often isn't true.