D&D 4E 4E: New power sources, new resource management

[jasin]

1) I loathe 'per encounter'. What does that mean anyway? How often is 'per encounter'? Do the guys that design 'per encounter' assume that everything is a distinct set peice engagement? Heck, what does 'per encounter' mean to a video game?

Well, looking at the swordsage and warblade, "per encounter" means "trivially recoverable unless you're in initiative-time where every second matters". You start every encounter with all your per-encounter abilities ready, since it doesn't take more than a couple of seconds to get them back. But those couple of seconds mean you cannot use them completely at will, since a couple of seconds in a fight is enough to get your ass kicked.

3) I loathe the 'in order to balance all the classes, we have to give them all spells' trick of Diablo, Bo9S, or Iron Heroes.

We've been there, more or less, for a long time. Out of all 3E's classes, how many don't have any spells or spell-like abilities?

I'd love more of a distinction between spellcasters and non-spellcasters, but flavour is much more important than mechanics. I don't mind if the mage and the warrior use a similar or same mechanic when using Shocking Grasp and Mighty Cut, respectively (whatever Might Cut might be... I just made the name up). However, I'd like flying, bolts of lightning, bursts of fire, invisibility... to be limited mostly to clearly designated magic guys, with not-magic guys using powerful blows, cunning tricks, superior speed to win their fights. Of course, exceptions and hybrids should be possible, but for the default fighter, I want much more Iron Heart than Desert Wind.

 

[Irda Ranger]

1) I loathe 'per encounter'. What does that mean anyway? How often is 'per encounter'? Do the guys that design 'per encounter' assume that everything is a distinct set peice engagement?

No. "Per Encounter" could mean a number of things, but primarily it means "You can do this once every X rounds", which may be enforced in any number of ways. Iron Heroes uses Tokens (you do stuff in combat to earn them, and then cash them in). Using this system you could throw Fireballs all day (once every three rounds), but who cares? Like Tim the Enchanter, unless you're in combat you're just blowing up rocks in the back yard. Big whoop. In combat it means that you get off 1-3 big spells, like normal, but you're not limited to X combats / day.

Of course, I'm doubting Hit Points are balanced "Per Encounter" ....

3) I loathe the 'in order to balance all the classes, we have to give them all spells' trick of Diablo, Bo9S, or Iron Heroes. I really hope we aren't going that way (although if I was a betting man I'd say we are), although in all fairness, the IH token system was one of the most elegant magic systems I'd seen and probably plays well at lower levels.

Er, no one has spells in Iron Heroes. Except the bad guys. And the Arcanist class, but no one plays that. It's broken in ways the 3.0 ranger could only dream of.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I don't see how they can go in that direction without vastly reducing either the power or the versitility of spellcasters.

If I were to do it, I'd divide magic into Powers and Incantations (to make up two cool categories).

Powers are your Booms and Buffs - the stuff you use in combat. They are balanced "Per Encounter."

Incantations are all your quirky utility spells, like Knock and Tenser's Floating Disc. They have some other balancing mechanism, like costly material components (like 20 pieces of silver, which can add up, and you have to have the money on you), minor XP costs (1 XP/spell level), subdual HP damage (aka, a Mage's life force), or the old per day schtick. Or something else.

 

[Kunimatyu]

QFT.

I don't see how they can go in that direction without vastly reducing either the power or the versitility of spellcasters.

Precisely.

It'll finally balance casters and fighters, and stop casters from being able to do everything in the game as well or better than everyone else.

 

[jasin]

If I were to do it, I'd divide magic into Powers and Incantations (to make up two cool categories).

Powers are your Booms and Buffs - the stuff you use in combat. They are balanced "Per Encounter."

Incantations are all your quirky utility spells, like Knock and Tenser's Floating Disc.

I like it, but I think per encounter buffs can create serious issues. I don't want everyone to be walking around with bull's strength on all the time, and stopping for 4 rounds every 6 minutes so that their Wiz7 can "reresh" it.

 

[Celebrim]

Precisely.

It'll finally balance casters and fighters, and stop casters from being able to do everything in the game as well or better than everyone else.

Err... no. There is certainly no gaurantee of that.

Up until about 7th level, non-casters tend to outshine casters. Then around 9th level, casters start pulling ahead with a proliferation of true save or die spells, the first true deal breaking spells (raise dead, teleport, polymorph, etc.), and so forth. But really, even then non-casters can keep up until at least 13th level.

The problem is that without that ability to just break the rules, casters would never pull ahead of non-casters. And without the ability to just break the rules, casters would lose thier attraction to the people who wanted to play them. On the other hand, with the ability to break the rules, at high levels casters are always going to outshine non-casters.

So far, designers have tried to approach that by giving the ability to break the rules to non-casters - essentially giving them spells. But so far, the mechanics just don't work for me. If I wanted to play a spell-caster, I'd play a spell-caster. It might work for a Wuxia based game, but its wierd otherwise.

 

[borc killer]

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm

And the mage and barbarian might get along a little better thanks to revamped spell recovery rules that won’t do away with the need to rest to replenish spells, but will give players more options to recover spells and in-game incentives to do something other than call nappy-time every two encounters.

I think I love you /cry

 

[howandwhy99]

I know for our group spells are used just as much if not more out of combat than in. Unlimited or vast ability to cast spells oo-combat would be seriously game altering as combat isn't the whole game for us.

I'm intrigued by the new edition, but I can't really say anything about it until I have it.

 

[Cadfan]

Changing to a primarily per encounter system will certainly involve altering spellcasters significantly. But I'm ok with this, and there are good ways to do it.

Casting times can do this with ease. It doesn't matter if a character can cast Plane Shift an unlimited number of times per day, if each casting takes an hour for the ritual to complete. Spell components can do this as well. If the spell component for Plane Shift is a specially prepared full size door which you shatter with magical energy, you are limited by how many of those you are prepared to cart around at any given time.

 

[Renshai]

Good to see you back Ruin Explorer! I do remember you from the old days!

Welcome!