D&D 4E [4e] Paladin (feat) advice needed

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Well, first of all, I got rid of 'Arcane' as a power source. All arcane means is "something not widely known, obtuse, secret, or mysterious", so it IS NOT A POWER SOURCE (what would it be, the power of ignorance?). The real reason is it is just nebulous and unbounded and thus consumes all else. I have Elemental, Spirit, Martial, Shadow, and Nature. I don't really care about psionics, and hadn't thought of it particularly as an M:tG color analog, but I guess I don't have an issue with that. Other games have done the same sort of thing, and it didn't start with M:tG either. I might consider calling Martial 'Ki', and just limiting it to the more internalized aspects of that. Warrior themes can then pull from that, for say a fighter-like concept where you do studly combat stuff. Martial works though, but I consider it a bit more fantastic than most people would.

All "Paladin" means is "someone from the palace," so I'm afraid etymological arguments don't really sway me. Now, to be fair, my "Arcane" is MUCH more elemental than usual. But it needs to include the Sorcerer (Arcane Warrior), Wizard (Arcane Sage), and Bard (Arcane Trickster)--and I don't really consider the Bard an "elemental" caster. I suppose you could fluff it as thunder, 'the fire within' and such, but that pushes "elemental" to the point of meaninglessness, so I don't really care. It seems pretty clear to me that your Elemental is (more or less) equivalent to my Arcana, Spirit::Radiant, and the rest are identical.

I struggled with the name "Martial" myself. Originally I called it "Body." I definitely want to break away from the "modern" perception that Pure Skill, Grit, And Muscle cannot be supernatural in nature or effect. Hercules is a Martial hero--the fact that he has god-blood in his veins is only a plot-relevant thing, it doesn't give him his powers, not in the way dragon blood gives a (3e/4e/5e) Sorcerer powers. His Awesome Strength gives him powers. Hence why, in my previous post, I noted that the Warlord/Tactician/Captain/etc. has preternatural strategy, tactics that go beyond what Mere Mortals can do. Odysseus, despite not having any godly blood (IIRC?) would be just as epic as Hercules--but as a Warlord/whatever, for he was Ulixes sapientissimus Graecorum. I hesitate to use "Ki" because...well, it communicates an implicit wuxia tone that is not always welcome.

In my theory the 3 classes aren't tied to either roles or power sources directly. Instead that falls to themes. So the 'Paladin' would be a Spiritual weapon user, probably of the warrior class. A more mystical paladin might choose to be a mystic (and that could work out similarly to the 4e chaladin or something closer to the STR cleric maybe). I thought of a Shadow Trickster as being an illusionist. Maybe a Nature trickster would be a bard, more like the old 1e bard and less like the later wizard-lite versions.

With my (proposed, unwritten) system, as stated, the Bard would be the Arcane Trickster. My Nature Trickster is the Ranger, who uses traps, terrain, and animal companions to harry enemies and coordinate with allies. I've already described the Assassin (Shadow Trickster) and WarTaCaptain (Martial Trickster); the only remaining one is the Radiant Trickster, the Avenger, who works kinda-sorta-ish like the opposite of an Assassin, personally harrying foes and, in so doing, leaving them open for their allies to strike.

For someone who wanted to be....a "more mystical Paladin," well, I'd just say "be a Priest (Radiant Sage)," or possibly pick up a little bit of support-heavy stuff. TBH though I don't really get the impulse to be a "more mystical Paladin." Like...that's like saying I want to be a more science-y "pure mathematician"; if you want to be a science-y pure mathematician, do theoretical science, or comp sci, or something like that--don't try to take a borderline-philosophy discipline like pure math and casually inject some empiricism into it.

The other thing that enters the discussion here is going back to my concept of boons as advancement. I don't care that much about 'gaming the system' so to speak. At least not in the 4e-esque way. I WANT all the pieces to play together. The GM is going to be the one dishing out boons according to narrative. The intent is that 'build science' just doesn't exist in this paradigm. Yes, the GM can of course cater to the players, and they can make choices to go after boons that have mechanical advantages for them, but its just not the focus of the game. Instead you make stuff work together so that the players don't think about that, instead they think about what's cool in a narrative context, and it 'just works' for them. Instead of a design that discourages the fighter from taking 'wizard stuff', let that just work for them. It will just work in a 'fightery way'.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but...are you saying that the DM would need to custom-build each improvement in a character's advancement? Because that sounds like a *nightmare,* for everyone involved, so I'm really hoping I've misunderstood you.
 
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All "Paladin" means is "someone from the palace," so I'm afraid etymological arguments don't really sway me. Now, to be fair, my "Arcane" is MUCH more elemental than usual. But it needs to include the Sorcerer (Arcane Warrior), Wizard (Arcane Sage), and Bard (Arcane Trickster)--and I don't really consider the Bard an "elemental" caster. I suppose you could fluff it as thunder, 'the fire within' and such, but that pushes "elemental" to the point of meaninglessness, so I don't really care. It seems pretty clear to me that your Elemental is (more or less) equivalent to my Arcana, Spirit::Radiant, and the rest are identical.
Well, no, I don't consider Elemental to be identical to Arcane. I consider power source to be 'SOURCE of power', not power-using tradition. So a wizard would be a Mystic (I wanted to avoid 'Sage' as it implies study). In fact, the Mystic class in some degree corresponds to Arcane, to the extent that it encompasses all characters who utilize overt magic more-or-less directly. A wizard also relates to his power via the tradition of scholarship. In fact wizards, per-se, are really generalists, studying all aspects of magic. I haven't really come to terms with that entirely, is there a separate class that deals with the academic study of each of the power sources? Are wizards just not tied to one source, but instead focused on other facets of magic, such as 'schools', in which case they might all be one theme with specializations?

You could also debate any other choices here. Does the 'paladin' concept need a theme, or is a Warrior class Priest theme basically a 'paladin'? I'd say there's some room for both themes, but my observations of 4e are that the 4e Paladin and Cleric would have been MUCH better if they'd had all Clerics CHA/WIS and all Paladins CHA/STR and made the division much more explicit (IE if you run around in armor and use melee attacks, you ARE a Paladin). That would have avoided two very messy V-shaped classes.

I wouldn't call the Ranger a 'Trickster', I'd call him a Nature Warrior. Anyway, there's actually more ground available in this kind of division than is really needed by the classical D&D cast of classes. I didn't really intend to create a 'grid' of Class vs Power source. You COULD, but some of it might be forced, though interestingly some concepts that are ill-served in typical D&D might come out better:

Warrior - Nature = Ranger
Warrior - Ki/Martial = Knight (many possible minor variations on basic 'fighting man')
Warrior - Elemental = Hmmmmm, not sure on that one, maybe a swordmage?
Warrior - Spirit = Paladin
Warrior - Shadow = Anti-Paladin

Mystic - Nature = Druid
Mystic - Ki/Martial = another one that could be a few things, 'ninja'/assassin, or this could be a swordmage
Mystic - Elemental = Sorcerer
Mystic - Spirit = Priest
Mystic - Shadow = Witch/Warlock

Trickster - Nature = I don't really have an idea for this, exactly, though it seems like an interesting space
Trickster - Ki/Martial = classic rogue types
Trickster - Elemental = maybe another sort of more magical roguish type of guy, or a different flavor of sorcerer
Trickster - Spirit = Possibly an avenger, though 'vengeance' hardly seems like it fits the trickster
Trickster - Shadow = illusionist, though a certain type of assassin also works.

I struggled with the name "Martial" myself. Originally I called it "Body." I definitely want to break away from the "modern" perception that Pure Skill, Grit, And Muscle cannot be supernatural in nature or effect. Hercules is a Martial hero--the fact that he has god-blood in his veins is only a plot-relevant thing, it doesn't give him his powers, not in the way dragon blood gives a (3e/4e/5e) Sorcerer powers. His Awesome Strength gives him powers. Hence why, in my previous post, I noted that the Warlord/Tactician/Captain/etc. has preternatural strategy, tactics that go beyond what Mere Mortals can do. Odysseus, despite not having any godly blood (IIRC?) would be just as epic as Hercules--but as a Warlord/whatever, for he was Ulixes sapientissimus Graecorum. I hesitate to use "Ki" because...well, it communicates an implicit wuxia tone that is not always welcome.
Ki is indeed invested with certain thematic baggage. In some ways it ties in pretty well though conceptually. So I have mixed feelings about it too. 'Martial' lacks the baggage, but has its own 'mundane' implications, as you note. I haven't heard of a third term that splits the difference. There probably IS one, but its also probably fairly culturally specific.

With my (proposed, unwritten) system, as stated, the Bard would be the Arcane Trickster. My Nature Trickster is the Ranger, who uses traps, terrain, and animal companions to harry enemies and coordinate with allies. I've already described the Assassin (Shadow Trickster) and WarTaCaptain (Martial Trickster); the only remaining one is the Radiant Trickster, the Avenger, who works kinda-sorta-ish like the opposite of an Assassin, personally harrying foes and, in so doing, leaving them open for their allies to strike.

For someone who wanted to be....a "more mystical Paladin," well, I'd just say "be a Priest (Radiant Sage)," or possibly pick up a little bit of support-heavy stuff. TBH though I don't really get the impulse to be a "more mystical Paladin." Like...that's like saying I want to be a more science-y "pure mathematician"; if you want to be a science-y pure mathematician, do theoretical science, or comp sci, or something like that--don't try to take a borderline-philosophy discipline like pure math and casually inject some empiricism into it.
Well, like I said, I never liked the "almost a caster, isn't this just a cleric?" versions of paladin either. Paladins fight, clerics cast spells. This actually IS pretty clear back in Greyhawk, the paladin is HOLY but he's purely a warrior, without any significant spell-casting ability.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but...are you saying that the DM would need to custom-build each improvement in a character's advancement? Because that sounds like a *nightmare,* for everyone involved, so I'm really hoping I've misunderstood you.

No, I would think that an actual published game would supply a long list of boons, and probably a number of them would include 'guidance' like suggested levels and class/theme/race that they are applicable to. I like a looser system though, instead of labelling these as 'requirements', label them as suggestions. Like put them in sections related to the elements they associate with (martial weapon use boons grouped with warrior themes for instance) but without a rule that says "though shalt not use this if you are a Mystic!" and in fact hopefully the way bonuses are figured and such would make odd permutations mechanically viable, even optimizable.

I'm also decoupling form from function. A boon can be in the form of an item, a magical condition that is placed upon a character, the result of training, a divine blessing, etc. While many boons may best take, and be presented in, a given form, such a flaming sword, the same mechanics could be easily translated into other forms. In other words you might recast the magical flaming sword as an inherent elemental force which a character controls, which can manifest bonus fire damage to weapon attacks. There are some narrative differences, you can't hand your essential nature to another character like a magic weapon, but in a slightly more loosely structured game the two boons would be pretty much exactly equivalent. Again the trick is making the mechanics flexible, so that if a wizard wants flaming magic missiles then ideally the same boon does that and flaming swords. Perhaps that isn't perfectly attainable.

I really haven't come to a complete conclusion on the scope of boons either. Would 'Elemental Mastery (fire)' be a boon? How much would it give you? Does it have fire based powers associated with it? How many? Is it simply a single boon, or are their higher levels of Elemental Mastery with stacking effects? Do these effects scale? If so then you could have stacking for additional breadth (IE more advanced effects) and scaling that just takes care of doing the same stuff better at higher levels. That seems inherently appealing, but you could also design it as scaling with increased variations built in. The question then is more which provides the best narrative flexibility, and which is not too complex. A level 20 PC will have 20 major boons, logically, so each one probably doesn't want to be TOO big of a deal, and yet neither does it want to be so simple that you have to eat up 10 boons to be a real fire mage, unless the game is ABOUT really focusing on one thing...

Choices, choices. 4e seemed to go in that later path, to some extent. You were REALLY encouraged to focus on one or two core tricks, and then you'd have a miscellany of other things you could fall back on, generally. So I've been leaning in favor of powers scale, but boons themselves generally need to be accumulated in order to fully focus your character on a given shtick.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Well, no, I don't consider Elemental to be identical to Arcane. I consider power source to be 'SOURCE of power', not power-using tradition. So a wizard would be a Mystic (I wanted to avoid 'Sage' as it implies study). In fact, the Mystic class in some degree corresponds to Arcane, to the extent that it encompasses all characters who utilize overt magic more-or-less directly. A wizard also relates to his power via the tradition of scholarship. In fact wizards, per-se, are really generalists, studying all aspects of magic. I haven't really come to terms with that entirely, is there a separate class that deals with the academic study of each of the power sources? Are wizards just not tied to one source, but instead focused on other facets of magic, such as 'schools', in which case they might all be one theme with specializations?

That's fair--and yeah, I had had some concerns with the label "Sage" as well, especially since my Martial "Sage" is the Monk--so perhaps "Mystic" is a better term. And if we're using the power sources as, literally, the wellspring from which one's power appears, then I guess "Elemental" WOULD be the name of the "Arcane" source in my system. It's just that the elemental-iness is...really really really non-obvious for certain classes (e.g. Bard), but really obvious for others.

You could also debate any other choices here. Does the 'paladin' concept need a theme, or is a Warrior class Priest theme basically a 'paladin'? I'd say there's some room for both themes, but my observations of 4e are that the 4e Paladin and Cleric would have been MUCH better if they'd had all Clerics CHA/WIS and all Paladins CHA/STR and made the division much more explicit (IE if you run around in armor and use melee attacks, you ARE a Paladin). That would have avoided two very messy V-shaped classes.

Yeah, I'm of two minds there. On the one hand, I'm very much in favor of "A-shaped" classes, and agree that the Cleric would have been better off if it were "Wis, pick one of Cha or Str," while the Paladin were "Cha, pick one of Wis or Str." But on the other hand...I dunno. I like my Paladins that can do a variety of things. In the current game, for example, I went with slightly "below recommended" stats so I could have strong "tertiary" modifiers (+2 Wis, +2 Con) because those are useful to me as a Dragonborn Paladin. So....yeah I just dunno.

I wouldn't call the Ranger a 'Trickster', I'd call him a Nature Warrior. Anyway, there's actually more ground available in this kind of division than is really needed by the classical D&D cast of classes. I didn't really intend to create a 'grid' of Class vs Power source. You COULD, but some of it might be forced, though interestingly some concepts that are ill-served in typical D&D might come out better:

Well, perhaps we have different definitions of "Trickster" and "Warrior" here. For me, "Trickster" connotes the Controller or Leader roles in 4e: characters who, through cunning use of the tools provided to them by their power source, harry or manipulate enemies while sometimes setting up allies to land a killing blow or chew through a swathe of enemies. Thus, the Ranger is more suitable to that task (being a "pet user" gives them twice the physical presence on the battlefield; using traps and magical projectiles), albeit one that leans a little in the Warrior's direction. The "Warrior" connotes the Defender role, being hard to take down and retributive to enemy engagements. My Nature Warrior is the Shapeshifter, an amalgam of the 4e Barbarian and Warden, which takes Nature's power into itself in order to become preternaturally mighty (whether it be through "Rages" or "wild shapes" or what-ever else). The Nature Sage/Mystic (also touching on Controller and Leader, unfortunately) would, of course, be the Druid (or perhaps Shaman) which would take a more leader-y bent, having actual healing abilities

All three, I should note, would have variations focusing on Just Doing Damage. Because everybody likes doing damage, and doing damage is relatively easy to implement, mechanically. It's all the other things, especially Controller things, that can be a challenge.

<list snop>

Mine goes...
Arcane: Bard (Trickster), Sorcerer (Warrior), Wizard (Mystic) [Note that this means my Wizard may have access to heals of some kind!]
Nature: Ranger (T), Shapeshifter (W), Druid (M)
Shadow: Assassin (T), Ninja (W), Warlock (M)
Martial: Warlord (T), Knight* (W), Monk (M)
Radiant: Avenger (T), Paladin (W), Priest (M)

*Not so keen on that name. "Fighter" just feels too generic, and I want to avoid using the same term--"Warrior"--for both a class and a category.

Ki is indeed invested with certain thematic baggage. In some ways it ties in pretty well though conceptually. So I have mixed feelings about it too. 'Martial' lacks the baggage, but has its own 'mundane' implications, as you note. I haven't heard of a third term that splits the difference. There probably IS one, but its also probably fairly culturally specific.

Perhaps. It'd be nice to find something that isn't quite as widely-known as ki though.

No, I would think that an actual published game would supply a long list of boons, and probably a number of them would include 'guidance' like suggested levels and class/theme/race that they are applicable to. I like a looser system though, instead of labelling these as 'requirements', label them as suggestions. Like put them in sections related to the elements they associate with (martial weapon use boons grouped with warrior themes for instance) but without a rule that says "though shalt not use this if you are a Mystic!" and in fact hopefully the way bonuses are figured and such would make odd permutations mechanically viable, even optimizable.

I'm also decoupling form from function. A boon can be in the form of an item, a magical condition that is placed upon a character, the result of training, a divine blessing, etc. While many boons may best take, and be presented in, a given form, such a flaming sword, the same mechanics could be easily translated into other forms. In other words you might recast the magical flaming sword as an inherent elemental force which a character controls, which can manifest bonus fire damage to weapon attacks. There are some narrative differences, you can't hand your essential nature to another character like a magic weapon, but in a slightly more loosely structured game the two boons would be pretty much exactly equivalent. Again the trick is making the mechanics flexible, so that if a wizard wants flaming magic missiles then ideally the same boon does that and flaming swords. Perhaps that isn't perfectly attainable.

I really haven't come to a complete conclusion on the scope of boons either. Would 'Elemental Mastery (fire)' be a boon? How much would it give you? Does it have fire based powers associated with it? How many? Is it simply a single boon, or are their higher levels of Elemental Mastery with stacking effects? Do these effects scale? If so then you could have stacking for additional breadth (IE more advanced effects) and scaling that just takes care of doing the same stuff better at higher levels. That seems inherently appealing, but you could also design it as scaling with increased variations built in. The question then is more which provides the best narrative flexibility, and which is not too complex. A level 20 PC will have 20 major boons, logically, so each one probably doesn't want to be TOO big of a deal, and yet neither does it want to be so simple that you have to eat up 10 boons to be a real fire mage, unless the game is ABOUT really focusing on one thing...

Choices, choices. 4e seemed to go in that later path, to some extent. You were REALLY encouraged to focus on one or two core tricks, and then you'd have a miscellany of other things you could fall back on, generally. So I've been leaning in favor of powers scale, but boons themselves generally need to be accumulated in order to fully focus your character on a given shtick.

It's a lot to think about. I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to fully decoupling form from function. Stuff like "you can't hand over your mystic fire blessing like you can a flaming sword" is on the borderline of too much for me.
 
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That's fair--and yeah, I had had some concerns with the label "Sage" as well, especially since my Martial "Sage" is the Monk--so perhaps "Mystic" is a better term. And if we're using the power sources as, literally, the wellspring from which one's power appears, then I guess "Elemental" WOULD be the name of the "Arcane" source in my system. It's just that the elemental-iness is...really really really non-obvious for certain classes (e.g. Bard), but really obvious for others.
I take this from 3 archetypes of course, the basic generic protagonist warrior-like hero (though not all of them are very warlike), the 'Wonder Worker' that covers your Merlins etc, and the chaos-loving tricksters, the monkey king, coyote, Loki, whatever.


Yeah, I'm of two minds there. On the one hand, I'm very much in favor of "A-shaped" classes, and agree that the Cleric would have been better off if it were "Wis, pick one of Cha or Str," while the Paladin were "Cha, pick one of Wis or Str." But on the other hand...I dunno. I like my Paladins that can do a variety of things. In the current game, for example, I went with slightly "below recommended" stats so I could have strong "tertiary" modifiers (+2 Wis, +2 Con) because those are useful to me as a Dragonborn Paladin. So....yeah I just dunno.
I just see two concepts, a warrior who fights for his cause with weapons, and a priest who represents and supports his cause with magical power. Its just simpler and more clearly drawn. I am really going for clearly drawn. I play with people that don't have time and energy to deal with subtle character concepts for the most part. They want larger-than-life characters, the Paladin slays evil with his sword, the cleric blesses things and calls down the wrath of the gods. 4e was WAY too much into splitting hairs on that one.

Well, perhaps we have different definitions of "Trickster" and "Warrior" here. For me, "Trickster" connotes the Controller or Leader roles in 4e: characters who, through cunning use of the tools provided to them by their power source, harry or manipulate enemies while sometimes setting up allies to land a killing blow or chew through a swathe of enemies. Thus, the Ranger is more suitable to that task (being a "pet user" gives them twice the physical presence on the battlefield; using traps and magical projectiles), albeit one that leans a little in the Warrior's direction. The "Warrior" connotes the Defender role, being hard to take down and retributive to enemy engagements. My Nature Warrior is the Shapeshifter, an amalgam of the 4e Barbarian and Warden, which takes Nature's power into itself in order to become preternaturally mighty (whether it be through "Rages" or "wild shapes" or what-ever else). The Nature Sage/Mystic (also touching on Controller and Leader, unfortunately) would, of course, be the Druid (or perhaps Shaman) which would take a more leader-y bent, having actual healing abilities

All three, I should note, would have variations focusing on Just Doing Damage. Because everybody likes doing damage, and doing damage is relatively easy to implement, mechanically. It's all the other things, especially Controller things, that can be a challenge.
I think different archetypes definitely have role tendencies, but I think its quite possible to have say an Martial Warrior type leader, which could easily be a warlord, very straightforward Bravura type, goes to the front, and yells 'charge!'. Maybe there isn't a Warrior/controller particularly, though its not impossible. Mystics can be cast in pretty much any role, potentially, but they would be less prone to be defenders. A trickster could operate by many means, but the central theme is deception and chaos. So, you have your rogues, illusionists, assassins, etc.

Mine goes...
Arcane: Bard (Trickster), Sorcerer (Warrior), Wizard (Mystic) [Note that this means my Wizard may have access to heals of some kind!]
Nature: Ranger (T), Shapeshifter (W), Druid (M)
Shadow: Assassin (T), Ninja (W), Warlock (M)
Martial: Warlord (T), Knight* (W), Monk (M)
Radiant: Avenger (T), Paladin (W), Priest (M)

*Not so keen on that name. "Fighter" just feels too generic, and I want to avoid using the same term--"Warrior"--for both a class and a category.
Yeah, names for 'fighters' is a kind of a swamp.
It's a lot to think about. I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to fully decoupling form from function. Stuff like "you can't hand over your mystic fire blessing like you can a flaming sword" is on the borderline of too much for me.

I'd just leave it to narrative. You can present something like "You may add the fire keyword to your attacks. Once per day you may add 1d6 damage to any attack with the fire keyword." It works on a weapon, it works on YOU, your implement, etc. Heck, it will work on any sort of item, you could make a minor boon version that just works once, now its a potion.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
I'd just leave it to narrative. You can present something like "You may add the fire keyword to your attacks. Once per day you may add 1d6 damage to any attack with the fire keyword." It works on a weapon, it works on YOU, your implement, etc. Heck, it will work on any sort of item, you could make a minor boon version that just works once, now its a potion.
FWIW, as a player, I'd be strongly tempted to narrate every single one of my boons as a skill or inherent trait. Or ask my GM to give them to me in that form. Even if my GM promises never to take away my stuff, there may be situations where non-takeawayable boons are advantageous. "Hey hey hey, I totally understand that King Theoden doesn't trust foreign visitors. So to make him and Wormtongue feel safe, take my totally magical staff so I can't cast spells!"
 

FWIW, as a player, I'd be strongly tempted to narrate every single one of my boons as a skill or inherent trait. Or ask my GM to give them to me in that form. Even if my GM promises never to take away my stuff, there may be situations where non-takeawayable boons are advantageous. "Hey hey hey, I totally understand that King Theoden doesn't trust foreign visitors. So to make him and Wormtongue feel safe, take my totally magical staff so I can't cast spells!"

Sure, and you might also armtwist your GM to give you some dream assortment of boons that makes your character broken good, etc. However, the system STRONGLY urges that there needs to be narrative involved.

Think about it this way, in classic D&D you get XP, and then after you get all this XP there's a SEPARATE 'build phase' of the game where you go into 'level up mode' and pick all your new feats, powers, etc. I'm casting this as being different. You're beating on the dragon, he breaths on you, the flames wreath you in fire, your sword is glowing red hot, you plunge it into the dragon's breast, now you have a flametongue. There's no 'urging' in there. Maybe the player expressed an interest in this sort of boon for his character, but how it played out is going to decide what form it takes. Now you've gained a level, and you have this crazy fire power because of this new magic weapon you've acquired.

I mean, in the old days of D&D, when fighters got squat except magic items, it was pretty much the same way, there weren't 'builds' of fighter in AD&D 1e, not really anyway. You had a few choices, but mostly the DM handed you stuff and you went with it. This is kind of the same concept, except the 'stuff' might not be items, and you do have a fair number of choices in terms of which powers you pick to fill your slots, etc.

Obviously it may or may not work for any given group, I can't say. I think it works well in our group, but we've always been a very cooperative group that enjoys this sort of narrative focus. Players will pick effective choices, but only within the bounds of where the story goes. This kind of thing might not work quite as well in LFR or something, but I'm not sure. At least it would give the GM some backing to push back on 4e's 'shopping mart' style. I don't want to 'disempower players' but I think its just plain more fun when you have to go to fire mountain to get that neato fire spell you want.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
At least it would give the GM some backing to push back on 4e's 'shopping mart' style. I don't want to 'disempower players' but I think its just plain more fun when you have to go to fire mountain to get that neato fire spell you want.
To me this shows how different strokes will suit different folks. As a GM I found the 4E approach to items a breath of fresh air - and I'm talking about the original one, not the (personal opinion warning) nauseating "rarity" gumph that came later. The split between (player controlled, roughly) "magic items" and (totally GM controlled) Artifacts was genius. If I'm going to foist on the players stuff that I think is cool/want their characters to have I feel much better having the decency not to pretend it "belongs to them", now.

Not that I can't see the attractions of McGuffin scenarios where you have to visit Mount Zapp and combat the Zapp Monster to get your Zapp-o-Matic staff, but I view them as rather a cheap motivation source and for use only when otherwise uninspired. And then I would probably just assign a level to the site and let the players choose a suitably thematic item to acquire. Actually, a DungeonWorld style roll might be fun: state what you are seeking and do a research task. When the item is won, roll for the research task: full success = you get exactly what you wanted, partial success = you get what you wanted with caveats or issues, failure = you get whatever the GM chooses...
 

To me this shows how different strokes will suit different folks. As a GM I found the 4E approach to items a breath of fresh air - and I'm talking about the original one, not the (personal opinion warning) nauseating "rarity" gumph that came later. The split between (player controlled, roughly) "magic items" and (totally GM controlled) Artifacts was genius. If I'm going to foist on the players stuff that I think is cool/want their characters to have I feel much better having the decency not to pretend it "belongs to them", now.

Not that I can't see the attractions of McGuffin scenarios where you have to visit Mount Zapp and combat the Zapp Monster to get your Zapp-o-Matic staff, but I view them as rather a cheap motivation source and for use only when otherwise uninspired. And then I would probably just assign a level to the site and let the players choose a suitably thematic item to acquire. Actually, a DungeonWorld style roll might be fun: state what you are seeking and do a research task. When the item is won, roll for the research task: full success = you get exactly what you wanted, partial success = you get what you wanted with caveats or issues, failure = you get whatever the GM chooses...

LOL, yeah. I mean I don't disagree that there's a certain 'smaltziness' about these "go to the Cracks of Fate and collect the Tears of The Maiden, bind them in the Crystal Flask of Thingamabobbery and make the One Item!" but D&D is IMHO about embracing the smaltz to some extent. So I enjoy the chance to create these scenarios. Also I'm not implying a railroad (though of course this is more about play than rules consideration), the players are at least influencing which quests they end up with, if not outright choosing their goals explicitly.

I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with letting players 'just get' some stuff either. I simply think that you can make the narrative more interesting if there's something slightly more deep to it than "Oh, that's the item that goes well with my power, so I picked it". I found that tendency to be a kind of a bummer with 4e, it can be a bit of a story-killing system in that sense.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
I simply think that you can make the narrative more interesting if there's something slightly more deep to it than "Oh, that's the item that goes well with my power, so I picked it". I found that tendency to be a kind of a bummer with 4e, it can be a bit of a story-killing system in that sense.
That can happen if the players hoard treasure to their character and buy items individually, for sure - which was encouraged by the equivalence of items and money. Where I really think the player-realm items shine, though, is in being party-level customisation. It's part of character building, but it's done across the party as a whole because, unlike all other build-resources, it's not tied to the characters.

For my next campaign I intend to experiment with separating residuum and money. Residuum will be more-or-less priceless stuff that can be combined with ordinary items to create magical ones. Destroying the item will destroy the ordinary item, but leave the (full) residuum behind, so that residuum is eternal but it costs gold (effectively) to convert it from one form to another. Consumable items and rituals also just cost gold (or bought ingredients). Hopefully, that will make the residuum a party build resource and the gold more of a short-term or transformation resource.

Artifacts, of course, will remain GM-"gift" plot related tools.
 

That can happen if the players hoard treasure to their character and buy items individually, for sure - which was encouraged by the equivalence of items and money. Where I really think the player-realm items shine, though, is in being party-level customisation. It's part of character building, but it's done across the party as a whole because, unlike all other build-resources, it's not tied to the characters.

For my next campaign I intend to experiment with separating residuum and money. Residuum will be more-or-less priceless stuff that can be combined with ordinary items to create magical ones. Destroying the item will destroy the ordinary item, but leave the (full) residuum behind, so that residuum is eternal but it costs gold (effectively) to convert it from one form to another. Consumable items and rituals also just cost gold (or bought ingredients). Hopefully, that will make the residuum a party build resource and the gold more of a short-term or transformation resource.

Artifacts, of course, will remain GM-"gift" plot related tools.

Yeah, the residuum idea isn't a bad one. I think the ease of either using other materials or just buying it with gold was a little bit easy. I think though that if you look at the rules of 4e, its not really stated that you can EASILY buy residuum, its just established that a price could exist such that 1gp buys some specific amount, and its equivalent to some amount of arcane ritual components. In other words you COULD construct such an economy within the rules of 4e, by simply never offering residuum or arcane ritual components for sale. Make the PCs find them for themselves. That breaks the GP<->Magic Item link (items still technically have a GP buy/sell cost, but it has never been common that just any item is for sale). Now you could simply hold that all magic items gain their 'magicalness' due to containing some quantity of residuum, and the Enchant and Disenchant rituals simply become 'mana embuement and recovery' processes.

Haven't actually heard of a group playing this way, strictly, but I never allowed much of this kind of thing in my games. If you wanted an item, you might be able to get it, but making it would require acquiring or recycling a bunch of 'mana', and while not IMPOSSIBLE to buy, such purchases would require considerable effort. In fact suspiciously similar amounts of effort as gaining an equivalent treasure parcel! ;) This is in fact what lead me to the idea of boon system, at some level its just skipping several middlemen and doing what 4e might have intended, had someone really thought hard about it.
 

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