D&D 4E 4E PHB II & DMG II 1 year after release (and a new one every year after that)

[Vlos]

They can probably fit in quite a bit, actually, if the second series doesn't rehash all the rules on combat and gameplay and skills. The first PHB will already will have rules on half a dozen races, at least 8 core classes, and three different sets of powers (including spells and feats). No reason they can do that for each PHB, especially if they, like I said, don't rehash the base ruleset.

But that is the problem. It HAS to have all the RULES in it. It has to be the complete Players book Every time the print it. Otherwise a new set of players (no experienced player with them) will have to go out an buy every previous players book, just to play the game. And they have to make sure they can accomidate that. If you think otherwise your delusional.

Also, keep in mind, the PHB 2 isn't going to be a bunch of complete books mashed together, it's going to be like taking the best parts of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum and like 1/3rd of Tome of Magic.

Exactly, And how much is that. Way too much to put into one book. What are you expecting a Dictionary? They are going to put out a book about the size of their current books. Maybe, and I say that with a grain of salt, maybe a little bit thicker.

That's just silly; they can get more money by letting people keep subscribing and paying that monthly fee, while tempting them with previews of cool stuff in future books compared to going "Hey, no more online content unless you pay for the new books AND pay a subscription fee." which would just piss people off and then Wizard's won't be getting that monthly fee anymore, on top of the user having not bought the books for whatever reason. Remember, you don't need any of the online material to play D&D.. It's still a tabletop game, after all.

Your fooling yourself about business. Having seen how business has changed it from the TSR days to how it is now, I can't see how it would be otherwise. Hey I would love free access, but if it were free, why would I even need to buy a book to get access to it? So already they are charging a fee for it. It certainly won't be the last one...

 

[Mouseferatu]

But that is the problem. It HAS to have all the RULES in it. It has to be the complete Players book Every time the print it. Otherwise a new set of players (no experienced player with them) will have to go out an buy every previous players book, just to play the game. And they have to make sure they can accomidate that. If you think otherwise your delusional.

Um, no. As I understand it, the PHB2, DMG2, etc. are sequels and supplements. They're not meant for you to be able to play the game without the PHB1.

You know, just like the PHB2 and DMG2 were in 3E?

The very first PHB and DMG are, I believe, still the beating heart of the game. Everything beyond those is additional, not substitutive.

 

[Nebulous]

So after a year you buy a new book, just to get a few new things and another year of DDI, another year passes and you decide you no longer want to spend the $100 for another set of books which offer such limited content, so you find out you can no longer access DDI and all of a sudden you can't play 4ed?

I don't see what's stopping them from taking popular mechanics from the DI and just slapping them into a hardback. So even you don't buy into the whole DI thing, a year or two down the road you can still reap some benefits from it.

 

[Vlos]

Um, no. As I understand it, the PHB2, DMG2, etc. are sequels and supplements. They're not meant for you to be able to play the game without the PHB1.

You know, just like the PHB2 and DMG2 were in 3E?

The very first PHB and DMG are, I believe, still the beating heart of the game. Everything beyond those is additional, not substitutive.

Oh, I could be mistaken. I heard otherwise that they were publishing full updated editions each year. Because people complained about PHB2. And that again leads to having to carry around 20 books which leads again to the problems of too many books. After a single year you now have 6 books, two years 9 books. Not counting the settings books. The whole point was to keep the book count down.

Again I could be wrong, often am.

 

[Imaro]

Um, no. As I understand it, the PHB2, DMG2, etc. are sequels and supplements. They're not meant for you to be able to play the game without the PHB1.

You know, just like the PHB2 and DMG2 were in 3E?

The very first PHB and DMG are, I believe, still the beating heart of the game. Everything beyond those is additional, not substitutive.

I totally agree with your assumption...but again it makes me wonder, why label them as core instead of optional or additions? And then use the nomenclature of the core books as titles...I just can't think of a logical reason for this.

 

[Vlos]

Also, don't get me wrong. Alot of the changes that they are talking about sounds great. I am looking forward to it. But the single set of books and the DDI I am very leary about.

I do use the online SRD almost every day, so can see a good DDI site (that is free to use) a great boon to the game. But from a business model, I just can't see it from WoTC perspective. They have already gotten rid of Dungeon and Dragon magazine, (lost income) and rolled it into there, thus I suspect they expect to make it back some place. They are business people, they need to make money, lets be honest.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Because people complained about PHB2.

What people? My understanding is that PHB2 was one of WotC's best sellers (other than the three core books), and was overall extremely popular and well received.

After a single year you now have 6 books, two years 9 books. Not counting the settings books. The whole point was to keep the book count down.

Actually, WotC never once said the "point was to keep the book count down." It's not in their interest to keep the book count down. They said the rules were simpler, not that there wouldn't be more of them.

I'm sure there'll be a lot more than 6 books in the first year. Keep in mind that, between core, FR, Eberron, and adventures, WotC averaged close to two books a month for the life of 3.5.

 

[Nebulous]

Because people complained about PHB2. And that again leads to having to carry around 20 books which leads again to the problems of too many books. After a single year you now have 6 books, two years 9 books. Not counting the settings books. The whole point was to keep the book count down.

Again I could be wrong, often am.

Actually, i do think the PH was extremely popular and well received by the public. It had a lot of solid ideas that were even better than the DMG2 (which i didn't care for and did not purchase).

The whole book bloat will probably happen again over time (it's just part of this hobby i believe at this point, along with craploads of miniatures you'll never fully need) so you have to decisive in what you buy and don't buy.

 

[comrade raoul]

Wow. I hadn't heard this before, but I desperately hope it's true. Using PHBs/DMGs/MMs to introduce new, more complex, and/or more niche options is, I think, an absolutely brilliant way to handle things.

I completely agree. Here's a possibility that I find really exciting--suppose that subsequent books are (at least largely) usable on their own, only given the three core books, but that they're balanced on the assumption that players have access to most of the earlier stuff.

Thus, material in the PH3 can implicitly take into account options that players have in the PH2--archetypes left weak after (say) the PH2 can be boosted, and designers of a PH3 can be careful to avoid material that yields overpowered synergies with PH2 (or PH1) content. Depending on their group, DMs can stick closer or further to the core rules (by, say, only going so far in the sequence) and be much more confident that the material they include fits together neatly.

This is the kind of deep structural rethinking that makes me optimistic about 4e.

 

[Imaro]

I completely agree. Here's a possibility that I find really exciting--suppose that subsequent books are (at least largely) usable on their own, only given the three core books, but that they're balanced on the assumption that players have access to most of the earlier stuff.

Thus, material in the PH3 can implicitly take into account options that players have in the PH2--archetypes left weak after (say) the PH2 can be boosted, and designers of a PH3 can be careful to avoid material that yields overpowered synergies with PH2 (or PH1) content. Depending on their group, DMs can stick closer or further to the core rules (by, say, only going so far in the sequence) and be much more confident that the material they include fits together neatly.

This is the kind of deep structural rethinking that makes me optimistic about 4e.

Why exactly wasn't this an option in 3.5? I'm not seeing how renaming the books...PHBII instead of Tome of Magic changes this in any way.

The funny thing to me is people keep saying the 3.5 PHBII sold well and it was great, but it's nothing like what they are proposing here. The PHB II was a book of options that expanded on the classes present in already released books, it's primary goal wasn't to introduce a whole set of new rules and systems that were independent of what came before. How are these two modls even similar except in naming conventions?