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D&D 4E [4E Players, mainly] Ever thought of defecting to Pathfinder?

Well, remember the end of the prophecy. Dancey lays out three options. The first is catastrophic collapse. The second is massive downsizing to bring costs in line with revenue, perhaps licensing out the property--D&D shrinks to become just another fantasy RPG instead of the 800-pound gorilla. And the third is a traumatic rebirth a la 3E.

So, even if Dancey is correct, it doesn't mean D&D is doomed.

Yes, true. Here is are the relevant stanzas of the Dancey Death Spiral Prophecy:

Ryan Dancey spaketh said:
Wizards is about to be forced into the D&D end-game which is something that many publishers have gone through but none ever with a game the scale and impact of D&D (TSR walked right up to this cliff but WotC saved them from going over the edge). There are 3 outcomes:

1: A total collapse, and the game ceases meaningful publication and distribution at least for one gamer generation and maybe forever.

2: Downsizing until overhead matches income; could involve some kind of out-license or spin off of the business - think BattleTech in its current incarnation.

3: Traumatic rebirth, meaning that someone, somewhere finds some way to cut out the cancers that are eating the tabletop game and restarts the mass market business for D&D.

Note that 2 and 3 can be mileposts on the road to 1.

We can hope that 3 is happening, but it seems that elements of 2 are and have been happening (specifically, "downsizing until overhead matches income"). Now I have a hard time believing that 1 will happen in the foreseeable future, but it certainly could happen. The strange thing about Pathfinder's emergence is that it has both increased the chances that 1 will happen but also assured D&D's survival in some form or fashion, albeit in the guise of Pathfinder.

I'm curious as to how Dancey would describe these "cancers."
 

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Hell no. I loathed 3.X when WotC was publishing it, and I still refuse to touch it now that Paizo's publishing it. Trying to read the rulebook makes my eyes bleed. Even if WotC explodes, I can keep playing 4E just fine. I can also get around to writing up my own version of 5E that's been kicking around in my head for a while, because no other RPG scratches that board-gamey itch the way 4E does. I'd also keep on playing Nobilis, Exalted, Reign, and assorted other things, all of which are drastically different from each other and satisfying in different ways.
 

This is an interesting thread. I was in pretty much the exact same state of mind shortly after 4e was announced, in the dying days of 3e.

My group had been playing together since late 2e, though all of our group members individual gaming histories go back beyond that, for the most part. We had moved into 3e, somewhat awkwardly, playing a monstrously bastardized hybrid beast, with houserules constantly in flux, never quite right. 3.5 came along, and we adopted it into the mess.

I should point out that I was thoroughly tired of the perceived flaws of 2nd edition, and the Player's Option series only partially made up for it. We had switched to positive AC and attack modifiers already (from the "10 things you can do to be ready for 3rd edition TODAY!" article from way back, and we liked it. Despite a long and enjoyable history with 2nd ed, I was ready for a change. I liked the things I'd been hearing/reading about 3e, for the most part.

Then the books came out. I devoured them. It was D&D, but new, with some interesting ideas. I hated the artistic direction (where's my Elmores and Easleys?), but liked the game itself. Not everyone in the group agreed, so we ended up bastardizing. We still had legacy houserules from 1e. I would never want to do that again, honestly, but that's what we did.

The hybrid rules, combined with the bloat afflicting 3.x was taking its toll on both the players and the primary DM (me). We were pretty much in the same boat as at the end of the 2nd edition era; we were tired of the flaws, unwilling to "go back" or stay where we were, but not sure where else to turn. I was looking at Pathfinder then, some of the others were pushing for E6, or even a return to 2e. We were actively entertaining other systems. Any other system.

When they announced 4e, it was obvious that we had to change. This made it obvious that they were not going to "fix" the problems with 3e, ever. I was feeling a little spiteful toward WotC. Like hell they were going to get any more of my money, I thought. I still hated the art direction (still don't like it actually, though it has improved thanks to the griping of grognards like me), and the inclusion of Tieflings and Dragonborn races, and Warlords and Warlocks in the first handbook did nothing for trying to convince me.

I was pushing even more for Pathfinder, still hopeful that they would be able to fix what we all knew was wrong with 3.x D&D. I didn't care that it wasn't even called D&D anymore. I had even been working on my own 3.75 D&D to fix what I felt Paizo was missing. I thought that Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might was going to be my answer, and my platform.

Then, the one guy in the group most vocal about 4e being 'okay' convinced me. We tried it, and all liked it, to enough of a degree that it was the first system since 2e was 'the only game in town' that we could call an acceptable compromise. We haven't really looked back since.

The thought of going back to Pathfinder or 3.x is just as unacceptable now as going back to 2e was back then (besides, my wife and co-DM would probably divorce me!). The difference of course, is that we all still are happy enough with 4e that we could continue using it, even if WotC is in a "death spiral." And the best part: that won't change. They can't "take back" the rules. We own the books, and we still have the old CB classic & Adventure Tools, and that's all we need.

Is it perfect? No, but it is good enough until something we like better comes along. If that never happens, so be it; we'll continue to enjoy the hobby, with or without WotC or even D&D.
 
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Simply put, I have no interest in going pathfinder.

For two reasons.

1: Pathfinder is 3.5(IMO), and I have plenty of 3.5 books, modules, etc at home already. Pathfinder complicated 3.5, maybe for the better (YMMV), but it is the same game.

2: No one I know here, and very very few people online I have seen play Pathfinder. The number of Pathfinder games are like 5% or less of 3.5 games I see on offer. Why buy a game I cannot play?

Frankly, I would like Paizo a lot more if they took their creativity and energy and made heir own game from the ground up, not just making a derivative work. A lot of the d20 books published during 3.5's reign were more different from 3.5 D&D.
 

Now to you. Have you thought seriously about "defecting" to Pathfinder or another edition of D&D or game altogether? (I have also considered Savage Worlds or Star Wars Saga or numerous other games, but my group and I are all a bit hooked on D&D, at least at the moment). Have you been questioning WotC and thought of switching to a different game in order to support a company that you respect more? What is your experience?

My thoughts have been similar to yours. I love 4e, but I have a hard time separating the company from the product. That has left a sour taste in my mouth where 4e is concerned.

As I look at Pathfinder, I can see a system with a lot of love put into it. I love their adventures. Yet as I look closer, I see a lot of what I didn't like about 3.5 still in there.

I had considered going to C&C. I love how rules light it is. At the same time, the last time I tried, found myself becoming an RPG tinker gnome. I kept adding to the system.

Either way, I feel like there would be a lot I would lose if I switched to another system. I love a lot of the new things introduced in 4e.



Play and enjoy both, reap all the benefits.

Alternately, play what you like, regardless of business or politics going on in the companies.

Alternately alternately, grab the mechanics you like from whatever and the fluff from whatever and combine the two.

I guess what I'm saying is, neither edition "loyalty" nor the state of WotC's business should decide what games you play. What you enjoy should. And if I really enjoyed 4e and really unenjoyed 3e, I'd see no reason whatsoever to move back.

4th edition rules, Pathfinder feel?

Honestly, I think I like the idea of 4e's rules mixed with PF's fluff.
 

Nope.

If I want to play 3.5, I still have my 3.5 books. I checked out Pathfinder, and I don't see that it did anything to address my concerns with the game.

I played 3.5 through its entire lifespan, and near the end I wanted to do something else. 4e hasn't lost my attention yet.

I'd be more likely to play more WFRP2, more Call of Cthulhu d20, or more Star Wars Saga Edition.

Or AD&D 1e. I loves me some AD&D.

-O
 

I play Magic Online. Ever since WotC "upgraded" to MTGO 3.0, I've played a lot less since even 3 years after the upgrade that version is still missing the Leagues functionality that I love to play. Now I basically only play the release events when a new set is released. But just because I play Magic less and is not statisfied with the current state of MTGO, doesn't mean I'd switch to playing Yu-gi-oh.
 

I play a lot of pathfinder. But would I want to switch to it permanently? No.

The gamers in my area much prefer pathfinder; in one of the games I run, I use pathfinder because my players are very particular about, say, what a rage is, and they get antsy if it doesn't follow that setup. I play because I like to hang out with my friends, though, so I can deal with a system I'm not very thrilled with. Not that I haven't been dropping hints about wanting a system change. And, hey, PF books are high quality and good reads, so not a total loss. I just don't like the rules. :erm:

I also play in one PF game. That is much more fun. PF is a great game to play; it's just a pain to run.

My only 4e game is a GW thing I run weekly in place of DDE. I wish I had an actual 4e game going, but c'est la vie.
 

Like many people here, I think there are really two itches to be scratched: the itch to purchase new products and enjoy reading them, and the itch to play/run an enjoyable game. The two don't have to correlate unless you really have room for only one RPG in your headspace. It's like reading gaming blogs: I enjoy the regular doses of "content" that blogs like D&D With Pornstars provides, but I don't feel the need to cancel my 4e games and start up an OSR-style game just to show support.
 

I buy the stuff i want and do not buy the stuff i do not want, I really do not get the OP, it is an alien mindset to me.

So, I would play Pathfinder and 3.x but I would never again Dm it.
I have enough WOTC stuff to do me, even if they stopped now.
I think if I tried a new game it would be something pretty rules light.
 

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