4E Power Creep--Forked Thread: As long as we are talking...

[Nifft]

really? You think the bard is BETTER then the warlord!?!?!?!?!??!!??

For the record, it looks like that to me, too. I hope to play a Bard soon and test this hypothesis.

Bard powers like Stirring Shout (Daily 1), Song of Conquest (Utility 6) and Song of Storms (Encounter 13) jump out at me.

Cheers, -- N

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I agree. Given the choice of only 1 Leader in any adventuring party, I would definitely go for the Warlord above any of the other choices.

The biggest issue with Warlord's I've seen are a lack of defense(as built, Warlords don't really have the survivability to survive the danger they put themselves in) and being lackluster in a party with a lot of ranged attackers.

A party of Warden, Warlord, Sorcerer, Archer Ranger and Invoker will be a lot harder on the Warlord than a party of Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, Rogue and Druid

 

[thecasualoblivion]

For the record, it looks like that to me, too. I hope to play a Bard soon and test this hypothesis.

Bard powers like Stirring Shout (Daily 1), Song of Conquest (Utility 6) and Song of Storms (Encounter 13) jump out at me.

Cheers, -- N

At those levels a Tactical Warlord has:

Daily 1--Lead the Attack, attack bonus equal to 1+Intelligence against this enemy until the end of the encounter. Beyond devastating if it connects, best used against Elites and Solos who go down quickly after being hit with this.

Utility 6--Guileful Switch, which essentially gives an ally a free turn as a minor action, and its an encounter power. This is possibly the most powerful Utility in the entire game.

Encounter 13--Beat them into the Ground, knocks prone, and allows all your allies to use a basic attack(ranged or melee) to also knock something prone. Solid.

 

[Rechan]

So I guess this is what the thread is going to be about, then.

[sblock=Warlords]My dislike of the Warlord (and PARTICULARLY the Tac Warlord) is:

1) Everyone else gets to have the fun at the Warlord's expense.

The Warlord lets everyone else do stuff. ANOTHER player gets a free turn. OTHER players do the basic attacking. The Warlord is just a cheerleader with a sword.

2) A great many of the Warlord's powers that I've seen:

A) Require a melee attack, and
B) Affect an adjacent ally.

For a mobile group, that's not that great, because everyone has to be beside the Warlord to get the benefits of his abilities.

And the fact all of the Warlord's powers are melee based really chafes me. It makes total sense to me for a Warlord to stand in the back ranks, yelling orders and firing a bow.

3) For the Warlord to shine, it really depends on the group you're in. A cleric or a bard can work in any group, but a Warlord needs a nice group to function in. For instance, if your Defender or Striker isn't Strength based, their Melee Basic is going to suck (unless they buy into the Feat Tax of Melee training). Or as thecasualoblivion notes, if he's in a party of ranged classes, he's going to hurt.

4) In terms of addressing healing or status conditions, I think Warlords make very poor leaders.

5) Finally, and this is the most important to me, the Warlord is as sexy as dirt.

I stand the Warlord next to the Bard, who is dominating foes, debuffing them, sliding his allies around or passing out Temporary Hitpoints like candy, or the Cleric who is summoning guardians, flame striking or a multitude of other things, or the Artificer, who's giving everyone's weapons super damage, causing area affects or summoning - and the Warlord looks dull as hell.

All the +Int to attack/damage, or granting extra attacks may add up, but they're boring. It's funny how thecasualoblivion refers to Warlords as the Rangers of Leaders, because I can't stand Rangers any more than I can Warlords. [/sblock]

 

[RefinedBean]

Uh...I'm going to address the OP, if that's okay.

I don't see any power creep in 4E, yet. I will say, though, having played a bevy of characters from both the PHB and PHB2, there might be some kind of...this is going to sound idiotic...some kind of "fun creep."

The PHB2 classes just seem to be more fun and interesting to play tactically, and many of their class abilities really use the 4E mechanics to the best of their ability. They seem to be seamlessly integrated ino the 4E rules much better than the PHB1 classes.

That's all just opinion, of course.

Oh, and Tactical Warlords rock.

 

[Nifft]

Daily 1--Lead the Attack, attack bonus equal to 1+Intelligence against this enemy until the end of the encounter. Beyond devastating if it connects, best used against Elites and Solos who go down quickly after being hit with this.

Ah, and therein lies the rub. If a Warlord misses with this, he gets nothing. The Bard's effect is great no matter what.

Utility 6--Guileful Switch

Certainly a great power, but if we're allowed to go to splatbooks, then I'm pulling out Glimpse the Future, which would have allowed your Warlord to land his Lead the Attack if he'd let the Bard know about it before hand.

Both powers verge on Epic Destiny daily benefits. The Warlord one wins by virtue of being an Encounter power, but ironically I've never seen it in play, possibly because it's not nearly as fun as it is powerful.

Encounter 13--Beat them into the Ground, knocks prone, and allows all your allies to use a basic attack(ranged or melee) to also knock something prone. Solid.

Sure, not terrible, but no extra damage (unless Iron Vanguard I guess?). And possibly irrelevant if you were already flanking your foes, or if you had to use a melee attack and they weren't going to move much anyway. Prone isn't that great in 4e -- and, again, only happens if you hit. The Bard might slay every minion in a burst 10 (making the Wizard just a bit envious), but his allies get to deal a bunch of extra damage even if he misses all of them. It's a win/win power, as opposed to the Warlord's win/whiff power selection.

Cheers, -- N

 

[cdrcjsn]

I don't see the power creep either.

I do see more options available though, some of which might suit someone's play style better, and might be mistaken for power creep.

Take Avenger for instance. Mechanically, the ability to roll double is about the same as bonus damage when it comes to average damage over the course of a fight, but it feels very different when used in actual play.

Likewise, a shaman's spirit mechanic makes that class very different to play than a cleric or bard.

Summoners are another example of a different way to play and differs in how they control the field of battle from a traditional warmage.

Personally, I'm excited to see what other twists to game play that PHB3 will bring, while still remaining balanced with previous classes. I'm greatly anticipating psions in particular and want to see how they fiddle with the normal encounter mechanics. Will it break the encounter-focused combat mechanics and allow people to go nova like 3e? Will soulknives create their own weapons and sidestep the normal item acquisition guidelines of 4e?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ah, and therein lies the rub. If a Warlord misses with this, he gets nothing. The Bard's effect is great no matter what.

Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of the
encounter, you and each ally within 5 squares of you gain
a power bonus to attack rolls against the target equal to 1
+ your Intelligence modifier.
Miss: Until the end of the encounter, you and each ally within
5 squares of you gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls
against the target.

so even on a miss +1 to hit for the whole encounter...

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Lead the Attack is all or nothing. If you hit an Elite or Solo with it, you just won the encounter. If you miss, its a slight buff. If you are using a Luckblade or Couters of Second Chances, this is what you use it on.

Very few powers in the game can win the encounter on a hit. This is one of them.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, I'm seeing more complexity creep than power creep. I don't see that as a bad thing, though.

And I love tactical warlords. They suit my style of play perfectly. I've got an eladrin tactical warlord/spiral tactician multiclassed swordmage who's itching to reach high enough levels to try out the combination of:

1. waves of languor (swordmage daily 25, Arcane Power); first failed save: target is unconscious (save ends)
2. warlord's doom (warlord encounter 27, PH); target fails its next saving throw against an effect of your choice
3. shutdown smite (warlord encounter 23, Martial Power); Tactical Presence: target takes a penalty to saving throws equal to your Intelligence modifier until the end of your next turn