4E Power Creep--Forked Thread: As long as we are talking...

[Particle_Man]

Looking at the feats, I would say there is power creep. Some feats are flat out better than similar feats in the phb I.

The expertise feats give one a +3 bonus to hit once one hits 25th level. There is a feat that gives a +2 bonus to all NADs. There are feats that each give a +4 bonus to one of the NADS, and that stacks with the +2 to all NADs feat.

Arcane Power has a feat that allows your wizard-type to get +2 damage on all at-wills when the arcane encounters are gone. That is great to take at 1st level, when you only have one arcane encounter per encounter.

Now maybe these feats were necessary to balance out some weakness, but that still means that they add more power to the characters taking them vs. characters taking other feats instead.

 

[Nifft]

Arcane Power has a feat that allows your wizard-type to get +2 damage on all at-wills when the arcane encounters are gone. That is great to take at 1st level, when you only have one arcane encounter per encounter.

For a Staff user, this is strictly inferior to Weapon Focus, which gives +2 damage all day. (Of course, they stack...)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Stalker0]

For a Staff user, this is strictly inferior to Weapon Focus, which gives +2 damage all day. (Of course, they stack...)

Cheers, -- N

At 1st level, weapon focus only gives a +1, unless staffs get something extra.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Arcane Power has a feat that allows your wizard-type to get +2 damage on all at-wills when the arcane encounters are gone. That is great to take at 1st level, when you only have one arcane encounter per encounter.

Good, but not better than other powers.

I had this on one of my characters. I was consistently able to use it by round 2 or 3 when I was 1st/2nd level. By the time 3rd level came around and I had a second encounter power, the bonus often wouldn't apply til the 3rd or 4th round of combat because the encounter powers were not always the most optimal power to use.

When combats last only 4-6 rounds, the consistent +1 of weapon focus is just as good, especially since it also applies to encounters and dailies.

Cedric

 

[Particle_Man]

I agree that the +2 feat can and should be traded out when you get more encounter powers, but it is still a better feat to have as an arcane caster while you are stuck with one arcane encounter power than most or all of the 1st level feats in the first phb.

 

[Jack99]

I don't really see the power creep after the release of PHB 2. Before PHB 2, the most powerful classes in 4E were Fighter and Warlord, and after PHB 2 that is still true. In fact, after Arcane Power was released, I'd put Wizard into the #3 slot without batting an eye.

Say what?

Anyway - the powercreep as noted elsewhere, somewhere between inconsequential and non-existing. IMO, ofc.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Actually, I'm seeing more complexity creep than power creep. I don't see that as a bad thing, though.

This.

The PHB2 classes are interesting in that they do what their roles are required to do, but they do it in different ways. They are interesting, but aren't really more powerful. For the non-controllers, they do seem to understand how the roles work, and have been able to deconstruct/reconstruct what makes a role. Healing doesn't just have to be variations of healing word, and striker damage doesn't just have to be variations of sneak attack damage.

The controller is still a bit underdevelopped, if only because there are less controller classes to compare to each other, and outside of ritual casting (that some leaders start with too) there isn't an easy to point too class feature (like the 2/enc healing, the at-will marking, the extra damage for strikers, etc) that 'represents' controlling.

The X Power books are doing a good job of addressing early missteps (like improving the wizards control ability, giving the star pact warlock a con based paragon path, hopefully building up the cleric and paladin power pools so that each 'half-class' is considered a viable option, etc) and giving them access to new toys like summoning. On top of that, it does help to make sure there are some feats for various class/race combinations too.

I think that while there are occaisional cases of individual powers or items that seem like a creep, for the most part new races and new classes seem to be balanced against the old ones in terms of power, although the new stuff does seem to be more interesting in their complexity. As the designers get more experience with the system, they'll find more interesting ways to accomplish similar goals, and thus can stray farther from the balance of making everything the same.

Also, from my own experience anyway, I've been running a group with a rogue, a tactlord and a fighter in it for a while, and they seem to be quite powerful. Compared to other games I've run/been in, few outside the barbarian can compare to the sheer damage power of a rogue that doesn't have to work that hard to get combat advantage constantly. And the passive bonuses of the warlord alone (at level 12, +5 to initiative, +3 to hit and +5 to damage when an action point is spent).

 

[Nifft]

At 1st level, weapon focus only gives a +1, unless staffs get something extra.

Ah, of course. As it happens, I'm planning for my PC's Paragon tier right now.

Thanks, -- N

 

[vagabundo]

The level of difference between power levels of the classes - and that really depends on how you measure power; damage output, survivability, versatility, ... - is close enough that the character build and tactical acumen* of the player matters more.

There seem to be no hosers this edition and I've seen some players really work well with a, possibly, duff character.

I haven't seen any PHBII character in play yet so I cannot comment on power creep, but I'm pretty satisfied so far with DDI and power books. 4e seems more balance-able than 3e.

*I've had to retool some characters for two of my, less than tactical players, to up their power level. The party wizard got frustrated because he had too many spells; bad expanded spellbook, you're a bad feat!

 

[malraux]

I'll agree that there hasn't been much of a power creep in the game so far. Playing a wizard (and seeing one in the group I DM), I'm fairly convinced grasp of the grave is over powered a bit relative to all other wizard powers at that level. That said, wizard daily shtick is for those to radically change the battle.

There is a fair amount of complexity creep, though I think that's mostly a good thing. The PHB classes are very straightforward and really can use some additional complexities.