D&D 4E 4E sceptics - what do you like?

I like the concept of Points of Light, of a more dangerous world, such as post-Wars Greyhawk.

I like the focus away from Vancian spellcasting, although I'd prefer that it remain *an option,* for those who enjoy that sort of thing.

I like the idea that races might have new abilities that 'unlock' as they level up, like the Ratoran flight mechanic. Instead of having to deal with the LA kludge, one could simply create a Drow race that only gains abilities like Spell Resistance at higher character levels, and can even create 'old-school' Greyhawk-style Drow with spell-like abilities, just limiting them to higher character levels.

I like more hit points at 1st level, to an extent. 30 hp 1st level Kobolds seems a little much.

I kinda like the idea of saving throws / rolls to hit being changed into a single die roll to overcome the 'defense' or 'resistance' of the target. I've been playing a lot of M&M and it's nice to see the OGL worked as intended, allowing WotC to take some ideas from the many 3rd party publishers and adapting them to streamline / improve the core game.

I like the idea of conditional powers / abilities that come into play after certain conditions are achieved. (Extra damage against bloodies foes, for example.) When Dark Ages of Camelot came out, I loved, loved, loved the fighting maneuvers that chained off of other situational stuff, like a special sword-style that had increased accuracy or did extra damage, but could only be used after a shield-block, taking advantage of the opening left by the opponents attack.

I love the idea that fighter could have an assortment of options in a fight. I've always wanted a fighter who could make an attack to do more than damage, trip, disarm, grapple. A lot of feat options, IMO, should be things *any* fighter can do, such as Power Attack, or other trade-off feats like All-Out Attack (sacrifice AC for Atk), Accurate Attack (sacrifice damage for Atk) or Defensive Attack (sacrifice Atk for AC). A fighter should be able to 'choke up' on his swing without needing a feat, and, while I have no idea if 4E is going to go this far, or I have to wait for 5E, the fact that Mike Mearls is working on it means that the fighter will no longer be little more than a 'dip class.' Weapon strikes that daze / stun (boot to the head!), sicken / nauseate (morningstar to the junk!), dazzle / blind (here's blood in your eye!), etc. would be cool, and totally non-magical, thus keeping the theme of a fighter who just uses a sword to apply appropriate conditions to foes.

I like the idea of getting rid of stat-boosting items (in particular), although I'm not sure if I'll like it in practice. Kinda on-the-fence about this one. Like many 'problems' they are 'fixing,' it didn't seem to be all that much of a 'problem' until they said it was...
 
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I like most of the design goals i heard. I like the idea of having faster more dynamic combats, I like POL, I like the idea of per encounter/day mechanics with every class using it to make balancing classes closer to becoming a reality. Basically everything they said they were shooting for I was optimistic about.
 

- race actually matters now
- skill consolidation
- save defenses
- no iterative attacks
- less christmass tree effect
- casters need +X 'weapons' too
- abandoning vancian casting systems
- attempt to balance class powers
- power sources
- consolidation of planes
- alignment less important
- healing surges
- larger 'sweet spot'

Basically I liked or at least could tolerate all the early reveals but the spoilers of the last couple weeks have cooled my enthusiasm considerably. I've pre-ordered the core books but I may never actually use them.
 

There are two huge design goals of 4E that I'm 100 percent behind, and a third one that I'm theoretically favoring.

(1) Stretching out the sweet spot. While I like the lower levels, including the more likely lethality, I really start to dislike 3.5 somewhere around levels 14 or 15. And that's even as a player ... as a DM, "dislike" is a bit too mild a word. So I'm a huge fan of the designers' goal with regard to that.

(2) Related (note the "as a DM" note above), I think it's great that they're trying to simplify DM prep. This isn't as big an issue for me as it is for some other folks, because I really don't have much problem with throwing together enemies, even BBEGs, the way I want them, rules be damned. On the other hand, I can definitely understand those DMs who want to stay 100 percent "inside the lines" when it comes to DMing, so I support the design goal. Also, frankly, even with "rules be damned," things start to get seriously complex at about 13th level or so, because there's only so much fudging you can do before you're punishing your players for being tactically smart.

(3) Increased mobility in combat. Despite all the DM advice, 3.5 combat all too often comes down to static positions (give or take a 5-foot step each round), meaning there's very little point in having cool terrain. It's possible to build characters who are focused on using the terrain, and maybe the focus on mobility ought to be built into characters rather than into the system. (That's why I say "theoretically.") But the truth is, most combat-mobile builds in 3.5 are significantly less effective than combat-static builds, so maybe it's time to try doing it server-side rather than client-side.
 

My thoughts have changed as more info becomes available, but have and still plan to have the PHB in hand before I make my final choice.

I started hating the idea of 4th ed, then as some info started to come out I started to warm to it and had even talked to some of my group about picking up the intro adventure and trying it. Then DDX happened and I have quickly slid back toward my original view of dislike.

What I like....
Points of Light

Easier Encounter Design

More defined/long term racial abilities

Larger Sweet spot of levels


Thats all I have for now.

JD
 

What I like:

  • The magic items
  • Second Wind (in fact I have instituted a house rule like this, though it cannot be used mid-fight it takes 10 minutes of rest to inact)
  • Uh. . .
  • Oh yeah! The changes to the planes.
 

You Gotta Know When to Fold 'Em

Geron Raveneye said:
So come on, here's your chance to prove that your scepticism hasn't made you blind to those positive concepts that you saw.
Although my 4E hate has made me powerful, I am a fan of its "folded" skills (e.g., Perception, Stealth, Streetwise).

-Samir
 

Jeff Wilder said:
There are two huge design goals of 4E that I'm 100 percent behind, and a third one that I'm theoretically favoring.

(1) Stretching out the sweet spot. While I like the lower levels, including the more likely lethality, I really start to dislike 3.5 somewhere around levels 14 or 15. And that's even as a player ... as a DM, "dislike" is a bit too mild a word. So I'm a huge fan of the designers' goal with regard to that.

(2) Related (note the "as a DM" note above), I think it's great that they're trying to simplify DM prep. This isn't as big an issue for me as it is for some other folks, because I really don't have much problem with throwing together enemies, even BBEGs, the way I want them, rules be damned. On the other hand, I can definitely understand those DMs who want to stay 100 percent "inside the lines" when it comes to DMing, so I support the design goal. Also, frankly, even with "rules be damned," things start to get seriously complex at about 13th level or so, because there's only so much fudging you can do before you're punishing your players for being tactically smart.

(3) Increased mobility in combat. Despite all the DM advice, 3.5 combat all too often comes down to static positions (give or take a 5-foot step each round), meaning there's very little point in having cool terrain. It's possible to build characters who are focused on using the terrain, and maybe the focus on mobility ought to be built into characters rather than into the system. (That's why I say "theoretically.") But the truth is, most combat-mobile builds in 3.5 are significantly less effective than combat-static builds, so maybe it's time to try doing it server-side rather than client-side.
Hey Jeff, you can't post both in the skeptic and the pro thread! Now how am I supposed to decide which side you're on! ;)

But then you might ask - what are you doing here, Mr. Ridcully? And to that, I can only *surprised look* Does that winged cow over there bleed? *runs away while rightful posters are distracted*
 

Replacing touch AC with Reflex saves. The distinction never made sense to me.

Removal of iterative/full attacks. AFAIAC, one of the REAL issues with high level D&D.

Non randomized hp per level.

Death and dying rules cautiously (I like the uncertainty. Not so sure I agree with the deficit-elimination.)

Bloodied condition. Never liked that at 1 hp you were as good as full.

(I would say buffs; others have mentioned it, the paladin smite convinced me that in-combat tracking was not simpler, but maybe that's why they reportedly said there will be changes from the paladin from what was seen at DDXP.)

I notice a lot of my fellow skeptics note many of these as well. That might form a functional guide to a more reasoned measure "3.75" rules fix. Course, a few of these were house rules I already had.
 

I'm 50-50 about 4e, so definitely a skeptic.

What I like:

- the fact that adventures don't need anymore to be designed around 4 encounters per day, because the rules will support more-or-less any amount of fights from 1 to X (insert here appropriate number larger than 4).

- further simplification of unnecessarily complicated combat mechanics (tho 3e was almost there)

- no rolls for character generation (I'd like to see random scores and HP as a variant, alongside the non-random method, but among the two I choose the new one)

- general easiness for DM to do their job

- easier monster creation

- standardization of spell durations, no more keeping track of them

- less reliance on magic equipment

I'm actually neutral to many of the other new things of 4e (such as flavor changes), and then there's a bunch of stuff I really dislike.
 

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