D&D 4E 4e Special Ability PER Encounter stinks...

[Geron Raveneye]

That is basically an alternate way to implement Reserve Feats. An alternate take might be "As long as you have the spell prepared, you can fire off one magic missile per round. You can unleash (lose) the spell to fire one magic missile at every opponent within range."

(What I wonder in the whole context of the proposed 25+ level of spells system: How many can a spellcaster actually prepare each day? One of each level? Two? Three? Couldn't this be to many spells in the end? Well, we will have to wait and see...)

Yeah, with the difference that it doesn't require the feat, but DOES require the casting of the spell (means the spell slot is used up for that day), while Reserve Feats need you to keep it back but use up a feat slot. And since there are a million feats floating out there for a wizard to take, but spells can be found and transcribed easily, I thought it might be an easier way to get this to every caster from 1st level on.
Although I got to admit, I like Reserve Feats, too, the way they are implemented.

 

[morbiczer]

"Per encounter" abilities are so far the biggest problem I have with 4E.

I don't like it at all, they don't make much sense. I like a little bit of realism in my game. I think - within a fantasy context - being able to cast a spell once per day, or being able to use a supernatural ability once per day makes sense. Being able to do it once per "encounter" doesn't. An "encounter" will always be something different. Why should an ability recharge sometimes after 2 or 3 rounds, and sometimes only after 20 or 30 minutes?

I know in some of my old groups the "is this a new encoutner or already a new one?" would have led to lots of arguments. The more things the DM has to decide arbitraly, the more problems it brings with it.

Some people say, that they didn't like that there often were some big fights in the beggining of the day, and then they had to stop, because the spellcasters had run out of spells. But this new "per encounter" system will probably lead to similar abuse and expolits. Let's assume you can cast one fireball per encounter. You enter the room, throw your fireball, run away, encounter ends. You come back a minute or two later, firebal, flight, end of encounter. Does this make mor sense? Is this more fun?

Even in RL (and I guess in fantasy literature) you cannot go on for ever. Sometimes yuo have to rest. Sometimes you use up all your resources and have to retreat.

If this trend continues, will death even be in 5E? Because dying (loosing your character) is certainly not fun. If 4E's (for me apparent) logic continues on, maybe yu will just respawn in the village when you die, like in Diablo an the so.

All this might be certainly wrong, since we got so far mainly hints and not real information about 4E. I hope I'm proved wrong, but right now I'm very sceptical about what seems to be the very basic design philosophy of 4E.

 

[Grog]

"Per encounter" abilities are so far the biggest problem I have with 4E.

I don't like it at all, they don't make much sense. I like a little bit of realism in my game. I think - within a fantasy context - being able to cast a spell once per day, or being able to use a supernatural ability once per day makes sense. Being able to do it once per "encounter" doesn't. An "encounter" will always be something different. Why should an ability recharge sometimes after 2 or 3 rounds, and sometimes only after 20 or 30 minutes?

This has been discussed already. If "per-encounter" abilities work the same way they do in SWSE (which many people suspect they will, since the 4E designers have said that SWSE is a significant preview for 4E), then these abilities will require one minute of uninterrupted rest/recovery before they can be used again. "Per-encounter" is just a convenient shorthand.

Some people say, that they didn't like that there often were some big fights in the beggining of the day, and then they had to stop, because the spellcasters had run out of spells. But this new "per encounter" system will probably lead to similar abuse and expolits. Let's assume you can cast one fireball per encounter. You enter the room, throw your fireball, run away, encounter ends. You come back a minute or two later, firebal, flight, end of encounter. Does this make mor sense? Is this more fun?

And the monsters are stupid enough to just sit there and wait for you to come back? Come on.

 

[morbiczer]

And the monsters are stupid enough to just sit there and wait for you to come back? Come on.

Just lock the door after you leave the room.

 

[Imaro]

Stormtroopers are totally mooks. They are, in fact, the quintessential mooks.

They're built using entirely Nonheroic levels (they're NH 4s). They have 10 Hit Points and a Threshold of 12. Their Ref Defense is 16. They are walking one-hit kills.

A good article to read on SW Encounter Design (and the role of mooks therein) can be found here.

I've read the article and all I can say is...what are you talking about...the article says one enemy of a CL equal to the PC's level should be a challenge for four PC's of that level...where does the article support what you are saying? In fact going by that article one stormtrooper should be a challenge for four PC's.

I was specifically talking about a level one party who could easily handle 10 times what that article proposes for a challenging encounter without breaking a sweat and then do it again and again and again. Especially if they are majority jedi(ie special abilities that reset after every encounter). Now maybe their mooks for higher level parties, but what then is challenging for 1st level characters?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Just lock the door after you leave the room.

I just had a picture in my mind of gamers in 30 years talking about the "old days" where attacking, running away, and attacking again to refresh per encounter abilities was "intelligent play" back in the day and that the current crop of gamers doesn't understand how to play right because the changes being made to 7th edition are making the game too "neo-pulp" and destroying the game.

 

[Green Knight]

In fact going by that article one stormtrooper should be a challenge for four PC's.

Every three Nonheroic levels is equal to one Heroic Level. So a Level 4 Stormtrooper is equivalent to a Level 1 PC. Thus four Stormtroopers is a challenge for four Level 1 PC's.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I've read the article and all I can say is...what are you talking about...the article says one enemy of a CL equal to the PC's level should be a challenge for four PC's of that level...where does the article support what you are saying? In fact going by that article one stormtrooper should be a challenge for four PC's.

You didn't read the whole article.

Low-Challenge Enemies as Hazards

Low-level enemies don't usually provide enough challenge for heroes. However, even at high levels, most players still want to kill stormtroopers and blow up battle droids. That's part of what makes a Star Wars game memorable. Instead of continually increasing the levels of stormtroopers, try using a handful of stormtroopers as an obstacle. An encounter with a single, high-level enemy might need to be enhanced to present a more cinematic scene, and adding a bunch of low-level goons to the fight does just that. The heroes will usually take time to stop and dispatch low-level enemies, even if they see them as little threat, and there's always a chance that a natural 20 will allow a thug to get off a lucky shot at a hero.

For example, a party of 10th-level heroes comes up against the Sith apprentice they have been pursuing for several adventures. The Gamemaster wants the Sith apprentice to be the focus of the encounter, but a four-on-one fight, even against a Sith, might be anticlimactic. To enhance the encounter, the Gamemaster adds a dozen low-level stormtroopers. They pose little direct threat to the heroes, but they're an obstacle that must be overcome on the way to defeating the real enemy. In addition, they give non-Jedi party members something to do while the Jedi engages the Sith apprentice in a climactic duel. A similar situation occurred in the Battle of Geonosis, when Mace Windu ran straight for Jango Fett while others focused on taking out the droids.

I was specifically talking about a level one party who could easily handle 10 times what that article proposes for a challenging encounter without breaking a sweat and then do it again and again and again.

Yep. That's pretty much the definition of mooks, isn't it? They get wasted by the score by the heroes.

So, if your first-level party can handle quite a large number of stormtroopers (... who are all placed in such a way that 3 Force Slams can get them all ...) then you're really just generating support for the "Stormtroopers are mooks" argument.

I'd say, rather, that there's an error in your encounter design if the above case - a couple Force Slams can win the encounter - is always true. It should occasionally be true - otherwise, why do your players have Force Slam - but it should not always be true.

 

[Imaro]

You didn't read the whole article.





Yep. That's pretty much the definition of mooks, isn't it? They get wasted by the score by the heroes.

So, if your first-level party can handle quite a large number of stormtroopers (... who are all placed in such a way that 3 Force Slams can get them all ...) then you're really just generating support for the "Stormtroopers are mooks" argument.

I'd say, rather, that there's an error in your encounter design if the above case - a couple Force Slams can win the encounter - is always true. It should occasionally be true - otherwise, why do your players have Force Slam - but it should not always be true.

Riiight, it's my encounter design...not the fact that 10 stormtroopers means you only have to get 3 with each use of the Force Slam ability(with 3 jedi, even though I was palying with 4+a soldier) which has a range of 30' and is an auto-kill on multiple opponents. The soldier one shot kills the last, and I ask myself how was one of these suppose to be in any way a challenge for four 1st level PC's. Oh yeah forgot, the encounter wasn't designed right...whatever keep reaching for straws. A jedi w/use the force trained and focused and no ability modifiers only has to roll a 2 or higher to succesfully kill every stormtrooper he gets...avg dmg of 4d6 is 12.

I guess I should have increased their stuff, raised their fort saves and made the environment work against them(cheated)...wait, why are they ranked CL 1 again? Oh yeah because If the player's powers didn't refresh every encounter then maybe one stormtrooper would be something of a challenge for four 1st level PC's...or maybe their encounter system is off and it has nothing to do with per-encounter abilities...no wait I didn't design the encounter "right". Well now I know, if I want a creature stated as challenging to four PC's to be challenging to even one I gotta stack everything against them, I sure hope that ain't the case with D&D as it gets old real quick.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Riiight, it's my encounter design...

In all seriousness, it probably is.

not the fact that 10 stormtroopers means you only have to get 3 with each use of the Force Slam ability(with 3 jedi, even though I was palying with 4+a soldier) which has a range of 30' and is an auto-kill on multiple opponents.

Force slam is a 30' / 6 square cone. If the 1st-level Jedi, with an average UtF check of around +7 or so, beat the stormies' Fort Defense of 12, they do 4d6 damage (average 14) and knock them prone. If they fail, they do 2d6 damage (average 7) and do not knock the stormies prone.

Stormies have 10 HP.

This is certainly not an auto-kill situation.

You're also running a party with three Jedi who have spent their only discretionary feat (unless they're human) on Force Training.

Their ability to kill things is limited to 12 squares away (6 movement, 6 Force Slam) which is the same distanc a charging Jedi will cover, in which case the Jedi will be killing things with their lightsaber anyway. Stormies are perfectly designed to do a bit of damage to the PCs using either grenades or autofire attacks and then snuff it once the PCs target them.

If you don't want this to happen, start things out farther away and spread your stormtroopers out. Send more of them. Arm them with something a little more substantial. Put them on speeders.

... but realize, when it comes right down to it, that the purpose of heroic characters in the Star Wars univers, and especially Jedi, is to kill lots and lots of stormtroopers in tactically interesting environments.

I ask myself how was one of these suppose to be in any way a challenge for four 1st level PC's.

... because if the stormtroopers get the drop on your PCs, they're all taking 15d8 damage (3d8 on autofire, missing, for 1.5d8 damage x 10 stormies).

A jedi w/use the force trained and focused and no ability modifiers only has to roll a 2 or higher to succesfully kill every stormtrooper he gets...avg dmg of 4d6 is 12.

It's also not possible to do unless you are a human.