D&D 4E 4E: The day the game ate the roleplayer?

[maggot]

It should be a game where four or five people can just go out and buy it and *start playing that afternoon*, and where the decision of who gets to be the DM is as simple as "Who wants to do it?" "I have an interesting idea for a campaign!"

*Not* "Who wants to do it?" "I will, because I'm the only one who owns all the relevant books...

I wish people would quit bagging on older version of D&D for having many books. It really weakens whatever case you are making. Having many books isn't a weakness of the game, it is a symptom of the game being around for a while. 3e/3.5/2e can be played with core, and 4e will have its own splatbook and setting creep soon enough.

 

[maggot]

Double post

 

[hong]

I wish people would quit bagging on older version of D&D for having many books. It really weakens whatever case you are making. Having many books isn't a weakness of the game, it is a symptom of the game being around for a while. 3e/3.5/2e can be played with core, and 4e will have its own splatbook and setting creep soon enough.

Holy quoting out of context, Batman!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Especially Werewolf players they adore their gore and violence.

Vampire is the most "emo" oriented, but these tend to deviate from the core of Vampire anyways which is politics.

Werewolf it is pretty hard to be emo, when your a badass Werewolf beating down various spirits and spirit possessed in your Half-Werewolf form with a warhammer.

Ha! I totally broke the emo meter in Werewolf. I played a pacifist Get of Fenris Ahroun. He was prone to going totally berzerk and then feeling like a total tool about it for days. He'd mope, he'd whine, the other werewolves would look embarrassed, and then he'd go berzerk again the next time something set him off. I tried to load as many "issues" on him as I could. He was a product of a broken home, a just-coming-out queer teenager, on his way to a drinking problem, and generally unable to think his way through any of his problems.

I can't believe how much fun he was to play.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Ha! I totally broke the emo meter in Werewolf. I played a pacifist Get of Fenris Ahroun. He was prone to going totally berzerk and then feeling like a total tool about it for days. He'd mope, he'd whine, the other werewolves would look embarrassed, and then he'd go berzerk again the next time something set him off. I tried to load as many "issues" on him as I could. He was a product of a broken home, a just-coming-out queer teenager, on his way to a drinking problem, and generally unable to think his way through any of his problems.

I can't believe how much fun he was to play.

LOL, that is amazing. Though you must admit of all the games, Werewolf is the less emo of the bunch

How long did you run wit this character?

 

[Kishin]

That sounds nice and simple, but it fails to capture the entire issue.

I am certain that I can run a great game sitting around the table with my friends. So clearly, there is no need for me to consider a purchase of 4e.

A really really good system can aid roleplaying by mechanically bolstering the feel that is being attempted. But that is a very small thing. As I have said in other threads, you can role play the part of a chess knight, but that doesn't make chess a decent RPG.

On the other hand, a bad system can significantly disrupt roleplaying by grinding against the very ideas and feel of the kind of world you want to play in. What I've seen of 4E makes me think it would jump up and maul immersion around the head and shoulders on a regular basis.

Cmarco's comment is well taken, but I don't see it as an endorsement of any game system to talk about the great time that was had NOT using it. And if in the midst of this great session the rules mechanics somehow did come up in a way that was jarringly contrary to the roleplaying action, then I really doubt that independence would be the term used.

It isn't about roleplaying without the rules. That is easy. Roleplaying WITH the rules is the issue.

The whole experience is the sum of the two parts. I honestly have no problem marrying the the roleplaying aspect to the mechanics, and I'm sure anyone who posts on ENWorld is a capable enough DM to do the same. Its practically part of the job description. Feel is all in how you convey it. As I said, I've never, ever, run into any situation in any of the systems I've played in where the mechanics hampered the roleplaying.

I think a lot of the '4E kills immersion dead' complaints stem from people occasionally getting more hung up on 'immersion in the minutiae' instead of 'immersion in a cool story'. You said its yourself, you can run a great roleplaying game sitting around the table with your friends, regardless of what you run. Having mechanics that are interesting, fun, and add depth in their function should be another, separate aspect.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I've been playing since '79 and the above quote just hit the nail on the head. I've played and ran every version of D&D, Basic and the rest of it's family have always been my favorite versions. Part of this is that I played the game when I was ten and part of it is that it was simple and streamlined, in comparison. By the way D&D has always been a minis game, the only change is that you can't get lead poisoning now. I would be a happy man if I could introduce the game to a group of ten year olds, and they could actually understand the game.

There's still lead in them. Just less lead. Also, I agree with you.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

LOL, that is amazing. Though you must admit of all the games, Werewolf is the less emo of the bunch

I don't know if parody of the Storyteller Angstplaying System would have worked as well in Vampire or Wraith, where I might have had to compete for the title of "Most Emo". Of course, that was back in the day, before emo was even a word.

How long did you run wit this character?

Not long enough. The campaign kind of died for OOG reasons.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think a lot of the '4E kills immersion dead' complaints stem from people occasionally getting more hung up on 'immersion in the minutiae' instead of 'immersion in a cool story'.

I think this is a really good point. From what I've seen, I think I'm going to be much less likely to get hung up on the minutiae in 4E, and more likely to just ignore the minutiae as I get carried along by the story and the action.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I think this is a really good point. From what I've seen, I think I'm going to be much less likely to get hung up on the minutiae in 4E, and more likely to just ignore the minutiae as I get carried along by the story and the action.

Yeah same, hell I am basing my campaign world around the aspect of the players as "Reality-Deviant" (they don't know) so each step they take alters the Reality of the World. Thus I can populate it, control it, tell stories of this world that don't necessarily go hand-in-hand with absolute details of the World.