D&D 4E 4E: The day the game ate the roleplayer?

Halivar said:
In my gaming group, this became the substitute for roleplaying. That is to say, they believed that having unique abilities and being able to do stuff made their characters "interesting" and "three-dimensional."

I have great hopes that this means my fellow players will spend the time they used in 3.x crunching numbers and picking feats/spells/prestige classes out of the splat books on developing a personality for their character, instead.

This is just my gaming group, and YMMV.

I don't think that is a problem that system can fix. In my experience power-gamers power-game. It's in their job description. If anything you'll probably see a lot more multi-classing.

If you want players to role-play show them how through NPCs, give them the opportunity through well-crafted scenes and scenarios, and reward them frequently for even the slightest bubble of in-character activity. Which is not to say you don't do these things, it's purely my personal experience.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Kitsune said:
But the previous versions of D&D were examples of a game being shaped around roleplaying. Why should a wizard be able to Meteor Swarm some guy for 50d8 damage while the warrior does 1d10+8? Well, clearly because the wizard is a wizard, and that's what wizards do.

4E is an example of a game being shaped without roleplaying. Every class shares essentially identical abilities.
I have no idea what you mean by roleplaying here. You seem to be using it as a synonym for imbalance, which is not a meaning I've seen before.

In the first edition of Pendragon all PCs are knights which would be like a D&D game where everyone is a fighter, or cavalier. Does that mean Pendragon was 'shaped without roleplaying'? The game also featured extensive rules for describing personality. Show me another game where you have stats for how Chaste, Worldly or Temperate your PC is.
 

Kitsune said:
Every class shares essentially identical abilities. They all have their at-will foozle, their per-encounter foozle, and per-day foozle.
As opposed to previous editions where every class had at-will foozles, such as sneak attack, detect evil or shoot crossbow, and all but two (rogue and fighter) had per-day foozles, which were mainly spells.

Most casters use Vancian magic, even if they're supposed to be nothing like a wizard. Ranger? Vancian magic. Druid? Vancian magic. Cleric? Vancian magic.

I'm not seeing huge class differences here. Heck, even most monster powers are rips from the PHB.
 

Kitsune said:
each class needs to have clearly-defined abilities that are carefully balanced so as not to make the other players unhappy, so you can't have anything so freeform as a blank check to turn into random monsters.
Yeah, that's terrible. It's not D&D unless someone at the table is unhappy. Preferably more than one person.

And when did blank checks become a good idea?
 

Kitsune said:
This makes combats a smooth and easy affair, but it casts a pall of blandness over the game. Nobody stands out in any particular direction; everything's been sanded down to a homogeneous plane.
Equal, but different, the Holy Grail of gaming.

It is hard to do, yes. But it's possible provided the class powers are sufficiently distinct. Same recovery mechanism, different abilities.
 

Kitsune said:
"Leafildor, quickly, use your connection to the trees to make that oak there attack!"
"Um, I can't. That's a once per day thing."
"But you said you were the fallen prince of trees!"
"Well, I am! Once a day until the start of my next round."
Sounds like every edition of D&D ever. Good to see some things never change, eh?
 

The math seems to work out quite well, the ability vs either defense (or just another ability mod + 10) or AC and the healing surges.

What i can see now is that whatever powers you dislike, you can easily scratch them and play straight powerless classes and add some special abilities to them.
You can also regain hp at the rate of one healing surge per day for natural healing and maybe give every leader class a number of healing surges per day to spend on anybody. (to a max of characters healing surges per day) And voila, thats a less heroic game.

And just for the record: Even at first level divine martial and arcane look quite different:

martial dailys seem to be very reliable.

divine per encounter have shared cooldowns. (OMG WoW expressions)

wizards can select between different dailies and can use cantrips at will, with mage hand and light as very powerful, impressive utility spells.

And one last thought: if wizards can vaporize a fighte at range, the fighter should vaporize the wizard in close combat. Especially 3rd edition failed at that...
 

Stalker0 said:
I now point you to the pregen wizard from DDX, who has a largely overlooked ability:

MAGE HAND AT WILL!!!

If you read the power its actually quite powerful. Think of the roleplaying potential of being able to do lesser telekinesis whenever you want...at first level even!! In 3e, you throw a magic missile, maybe a color spray, and your spent. Now I can play a wizard that sits in a chair while my magic turns the pages for me. I can have a servant who I give a telekinetic smack if he messes up. My guests are served by floating dishes that arrive to the table.

This.

Wizards clearly have plenty of wizard-flavor going on, thanks to at-will cantrips. When I saw the wizard pregen sheet, I was ecstatic, not because of any of the blasty combat spells--blasty spells are boring and always have been--but because of the non-combat, minor utility magic that is finally usable at will, the way it should be.

As a wizard player since the days of Classic, most of my best moments have come from creative use of spells with no direct combat utility. I tend to scorn fireball and the lightning bolt in favor of spells like major image (or spectral force, in 2E terms) and magic jar. Having free access to cantrip-type spells will be a godsend.

And we haven't even seen how ritual magic works yet...

Kishin said:
Roleplaying and storytelling are rule system independent activities.

Not entirely true. I have seen mechanics that actively foster roleplaying; for example, White Wolf's "Willpower" system, where you get in-game benefits (basically a primitive action-point mechanic) for acting in accordance with your character's motivations and personality. While the Willpower mechanic was easily abused, it did push people to think about who their characters were and what motivated them.

D&D has never had much in the way of mechanics to encourage roleplaying, though. The alignment system was a crude effort in that direction, but so ham-fistedly implemented that it hurt more than it helped; because your class often dictated your choice of alignment for you, people would pick an alignment and then design a persona around it, instead of inventing a persona and then picking the appropriate alignment.

Having said all that, I do sort of see the OP's point. 4E does have much more of a gamist "feel" than previous editions. I think it has to do with the company making it. WotC's roots lie in Magic: The Gathering, which is a game first and foremost and makes only token nods to simulating a pretend reality, and WotC carries over that gamist sensibility* into RPG design. 3E is a schizophrenic beast, mixing TSR's simulationism with WotC's gamism... often to the detriment of both, in my opinion. 4E, however, is truly WotC's game, and WotC has always laid heavy stress on the G part of RPG.

Still, I don't think 4E is going to be bad for the roleplaying side. I do have some beefs with what I feel to be excessive gamism, like the near-total abstraction of hit points. (If you get knocked into negative hit points, you have either taken a mortal wound which will cause you to bleed out and die, or suffered minor injuries which will cease to trouble you after 6 hours' rest. Which one is it? The answer remains indeterminate until you either fail your save to survive, or are stabilized, at which point the waveform collapses and the question is retroactively settled. You have Schrodinger's hit points.) But that's small potatoes compared to the massive streamlining of the system. In my opinion, roleplaying suffers much more from the endless number-crunching of 3E than it does from the occasional 4E corner case--the more time you spend processing numbers, the less time you spend getting into your character and exploring his/her personality.

*I use "sensibility" here to mean "worldview." I'm not trying to imply that WotC's approach is somehow more sensible than TSR's.
 

Kitsune said:
I've had a nagging discontent in the back of my mind with the new Star Wars game, and with the things that I'd read about 4E, and I never could put my finger on just what was bothering me... until recently. Suddenly things snapped into perfect clarity: 4E is a game.

"Well, DUH," you're thinking.

But the previous versions of D&D were examples of a game being shaped around roleplaying. Why should a wizard be able to Meteor Swarm some guy for 50d8 damage while the warrior does 1d10+8? Well, clearly because the wizard is a wizard, and that's what wizards do.

...Edit...

Move forward to the D&D Experience and you'll see the fruits of that labor. A very smooth, very polished system in which absolutely nobody deviates in a significant manner from anybody else. I got an image in my mind's eye, a video game first-person shooter with a 4E wizard pew-pewing out Magic Missiles as fast as the player could click, with the number of health surges remaining to him listed in the upper corner of the screen like health packs. Eventually a bar at the bottom of the screen will fill and he can do a fireball.

It always vexes me when people use the word game as though it were some filthy word better used for describing parasite infested testicular cysts. The example comparing 4th edition to a first person shooter is one that implies that games are purely for the simple minded and easily amused while the Grand High Art of Roleplaying is reserved for those of refined sense and taste. What you forget is that games are meant to be fun, as is D&D. As a leisure activity, it competes for your time and money against going to the movies, playing video games, going out and getting drunk, snowboarding and going to the museum. If the gameplay is not fun, then no one will play it.

Those who would justify having the wizard as the most powerful character in the party by using the flawed logic of "the wizard is a wizard, and that's what wizards do" is failing to see the point at which D&D goes beyond being a fantasy fiction novel. If I happen to like playing as a savage and bloodthirsty half orc barbarian, I do not want to have my character start to suck when the Gandalf clone learns to cast Enhanced Deathspell 4. I probably also do not like it if we have to focus the game on the Gandalf wannabe and plan around the 15 minute adventuring day. Per encounter and Per day powers may break immersion for you, but the current system simply makes the game kind of suck.

Considering how many DMs refused to run games at the higher levels when things get unmanageable should be a big clue. Having 19th level wizards who can shatter worlds and bend reality to their will that you never get to run makes about as much sense as buying a new 52 inch HDTV and then only using it to play Pong on an Atari 2600. Maybe you play D&D wanting to create a character similar to Gandalf. It will be a whole hell of alot easier to do that for you and for many other players if you actually have a chance to run the game past level 12 without your DM stroking out due to the game becoming too much like work. And if you have played the higher levels, perhaps you would get to enjoy the higher level play without running up against Save or Screwed roulette.

Also consider that D&D is just as much a social activity and a game as it is an exercise in story telling. The story telling is important, but it is not that much more important than the game rules. For every example of a game being ruined by a power gaming optimizer, there are just as many examples of games that were ruined by Railroad DM's, Mary Sue DMPC's, and DMs trying to cripple players by conspiring to have them captured and stripped of gear.

Another problem with the Roleplay before gameplay view is that story telling in D&D is very limited. The narrative must always follow the player, so you never get scenes where the Villain is speaking with his loyal henchmen. There are usually 3 to 5 player characters, so you do not get to have a single strong main character to drive the story. Most games tend to consist of all male players and a male DM, so doing any sort of romantic angle is going to get pretty damn awkward.

To me it sounds like 4th edition is going to try to play to its strengths much more than it has in the past. The numbers behind the rules will make sense, and an effort has been put into making sure no player ever has to suck. There are fewer numeric variables to keep track of in combat, which will make the DM's job easier to run at all levels. I am looking forward to giving the new edition a shot.

END COMMUNICATION
 

Derro said:
I kinda thought that might be a reply. So I put a bit more thought to it.

Sure, it's visible in all editions and many games. But it looks to me like it's being encouraged more by this rule set.

With the powers, and not just the magical ones, being arrayed the way they are there will most likely be more of a tendency to contrive combos that are really effective. To some this might not be a bad thing. More power to 'em. But when every character has this routine that they go through by rote it can get a little stale.

Seal, judge, seal, hammer of justice, judge, seal, crusader strike, seal, judge....
 

Remove ads

Top