RangerWickett
Legend
In light of the themes released in Dragon over the past few months, does anyone think the ZEITGEIST themes should have a few tweaks to give them benefits at 5th and 10th level? If so, does anyone have any suggestions?
4e Themes - need an update?
mcmillan
Adventurer
I was actually thinking about this earlier today. Basically my thought was it's fine as long as the themes in use are balanced. Since the Zeitgeist themes would be most likely to be used I was just going to say that if my player's wanted to use a different theme they'd only get the level 1 features (with the caveat that I haven't really compared how level 1 features balance to the Zeitgeist ones).
Though I'll admit that's probably influenced partially by my current campaign starting pre-themes and only one player is following development closely, so I'd be introducing themes to them solely for starting Zeitgeist. That being the case I can imagine people feeling a bit cheated if they were expecting themes to have additional effects.
Out of curiosity, how were you thinking of introducing the higher level features - update to the players guide, or would this just get printed in the adventures where they'd hit level 5 and 10?
Though I'll admit that's probably influenced partially by my current campaign starting pre-themes and only one player is following development closely, so I'd be introducing themes to them solely for starting Zeitgeist. That being the case I can imagine people feeling a bit cheated if they were expecting themes to have additional effects.
Out of curiosity, how were you thinking of introducing the higher level features - update to the players guide, or would this just get printed in the adventures where they'd hit level 5 and 10?
gideonpepys
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
You read my mind!
Balance won't be effected as long as all players have the theme. The additional powers at later level give more opportunities for the players to feel part of a unique world.
phoffman
Explorer
Themes
Benefits and unique opportunities based on themes appear to be baked into the adventures. I.E. there are benefits/consequences in the adventures for being a particular theme.
Themes other than the Zeitgeist themes can be used within the campaign, but I don't believe that they receive unique opportunities from the adventures like the Zeitgeist themes will. Taking this into account Zeitgeist themes may actually be balanced with themes from other sources.
Making the Zeitgeist themes up front (with additional lvl 5/10 features) as strong as themes outside campaign would actually be added value for other campaigns.
As a DM, I don't feel that you need to add additional features but as a player I would find comfort knowing more about what I can expect out of my theme.
Benefits and unique opportunities based on themes appear to be baked into the adventures. I.E. there are benefits/consequences in the adventures for being a particular theme.
Themes other than the Zeitgeist themes can be used within the campaign, but I don't believe that they receive unique opportunities from the adventures like the Zeitgeist themes will. Taking this into account Zeitgeist themes may actually be balanced with themes from other sources.
Making the Zeitgeist themes up front (with additional lvl 5/10 features) as strong as themes outside campaign would actually be added value for other campaigns.
As a DM, I don't feel that you need to add additional features but as a player I would find comfort knowing more about what I can expect out of my theme.
I think there should be, because getting theme related powers throughout your career is a strong reminder to the player of the theme. I always worry that after choosing a power at first level, the player will have largely forgotten about his theme a year later when the character is 10th level.
I don't think worrying about balance of folks using them in other games is any concern, and more than we designed the Torch of the Burning Sky to be used in a Forgotten Realms campaign. We're designing an adventure path, not a general sourcebook. The primary goal is what works for and enhances the ZEITGEIST adventure path. Additionally, I don't necessarily think that it's bad that campaign-specific themes are a little stronger; they provide an excellent tool and encouragement to immerse oneself in the presented world, and rewarding that is no bad thing.
I don't think worrying about balance of folks using them in other games is any concern, and more than we designed the Torch of the Burning Sky to be used in a Forgotten Realms campaign. We're designing an adventure path, not a general sourcebook. The primary goal is what works for and enhances the ZEITGEIST adventure path. Additionally, I don't necessarily think that it's bad that campaign-specific themes are a little stronger; they provide an excellent tool and encouragement to immerse oneself in the presented world, and rewarding that is no bad thing.
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I'd say yes, they probably should get some minor benefit, as well. As for what that is?
Well, from the looks of what you've done before, you want to avoid altering base stats, right? So +X to skills is probably out.
For a similar effect, you can do situational re-rolls. For instance, a Docker might get to roll twice (and take the higher roll) when using Bluff against the people of Risur. A Yerasol Veteran might get to do the same when using Intimidate against Danorans or Eladrin.
Skyseer: Can reroll any one check while performing divination rituals.
Things like that?
Situational bonuses can also work.
Yerasol Veteran: If you've survived Yerasol, you can survive anything. You gain a +1 power bonus to all defenses while bloodied.
A similar +1 to attack rolls while bloodied could work well for the Vekeshi Mystic (as the more retributive defender theme).
You can also give benefits that grant free things, but don't affect stats. For example:
Technologist, level 5: You master the Enchant Magic Item ritual, and can master other Creation and Warding rituals as though you had the Ritual Caster feat. All Creation rituals you perform have a technological component to them, and all Warding ones require one of your Simulacrum as a focus (but otherwise perform identically, other than having the similacrum present). If you have the Ritual Caster feat, you get a +2 on all checks to perform Creation or Warding rituals.
(I know, that one seems like it's much bigger, but the benefit is still fairly minor.)
Martial Scientist, level 5 (stolen from the Noble theme): Your former tutor, seeing your progress, decides to encourage you. You gain one common suit of armour, weapon, or neck slot item of 6th level or lower.
I hope that helps.
Well, from the looks of what you've done before, you want to avoid altering base stats, right? So +X to skills is probably out.
For a similar effect, you can do situational re-rolls. For instance, a Docker might get to roll twice (and take the higher roll) when using Bluff against the people of Risur. A Yerasol Veteran might get to do the same when using Intimidate against Danorans or Eladrin.
Skyseer: Can reroll any one check while performing divination rituals.
Things like that?
Situational bonuses can also work.
Yerasol Veteran: If you've survived Yerasol, you can survive anything. You gain a +1 power bonus to all defenses while bloodied.
A similar +1 to attack rolls while bloodied could work well for the Vekeshi Mystic (as the more retributive defender theme).
You can also give benefits that grant free things, but don't affect stats. For example:
Technologist, level 5: You master the Enchant Magic Item ritual, and can master other Creation and Warding rituals as though you had the Ritual Caster feat. All Creation rituals you perform have a technological component to them, and all Warding ones require one of your Simulacrum as a focus (but otherwise perform identically, other than having the similacrum present). If you have the Ritual Caster feat, you get a +2 on all checks to perform Creation or Warding rituals.
(I know, that one seems like it's much bigger, but the benefit is still fairly minor.)
Martial Scientist, level 5 (stolen from the Noble theme): Your former tutor, seeing your progress, decides to encourage you. You gain one common suit of armour, weapon, or neck slot item of 6th level or lower.
I hope that helps.
There are a couple themes that don't seem very compelling mechanically, and an update could help that.
Gunsmith: Great flavor, but I'm not convinced on the encounter power. I am hard pressed to find wotc support for dual-wielding ranged weapons, so one weapon seems better than two, and this feat isn't sufficient to balance that out. If I was playing a gunsmith, I'd focus my resources on one awesome gun rather than two less-awesome guns. Let me know if there's a dual-wield build I'm missing.
Martial Scientist: Again, great flavor, and the power's better on this one, but I'm not convinced it's up to some of the others, especially since I feel DMs should allow players to be creative anyway. This does allow the free shift 2 and weapon draws, so it's reasonably useful.
Skyseer: Look Skyward adds more complexity than it's worth, IMO, but Skyseer Vision is plenty good enough to compensate.
The other themes are good enough as is, especially since they all tie into the story. That said, I'm all for giving my players as much incentive as possible to invest in their themes, even if it risks unbalancing the math.
Gunsmith: Great flavor, but I'm not convinced on the encounter power. I am hard pressed to find wotc support for dual-wielding ranged weapons, so one weapon seems better than two, and this feat isn't sufficient to balance that out. If I was playing a gunsmith, I'd focus my resources on one awesome gun rather than two less-awesome guns. Let me know if there's a dual-wield build I'm missing.
Martial Scientist: Again, great flavor, and the power's better on this one, but I'm not convinced it's up to some of the others, especially since I feel DMs should allow players to be creative anyway. This does allow the free shift 2 and weapon draws, so it's reasonably useful.
Skyseer: Look Skyward adds more complexity than it's worth, IMO, but Skyseer Vision is plenty good enough to compensate.
The other themes are good enough as is, especially since they all tie into the story. That said, I'm all for giving my players as much incentive as possible to invest in their themes, even if it risks unbalancing the math.
If we update them, we won't be updating the PG. Instead, we'll write in context-appropriate events into the adventures themselves whereby the characters gain these things in character. It'll help reinforce the theme itself, and make sense.
At present, there's a very strong chance we'll do this at 5th level, so please keep the ideas coming! They don't have to be powers - any benefit works.
At present, there's a very strong chance we'll do this at 5th level, so please keep the ideas coming! They don't have to be powers - any benefit works.
Ajar
Explorer
I don't have any immediate ideas for higher-level theme perks, but I'm about to resolve my Spirit Medium's Speak with Spirit power for the first time, and was wondering whether you meant the DC to increase with player level, or target level? It isn't clear from the rules text in the Player's Guide -- it only states that the DC is Easy/Medium/Hard depending on the target's demeanour, but not what level those Easy/Medium/Hard DCs should be.
My current intention is to use the target's level, since it makes some amount of intuitive sense that it would be tougher to speak with a higher-level spirit. But I'm curious about the intent!
My current intention is to use the target's level, since it makes some amount of intuitive sense that it would be tougher to speak with a higher-level spirit. But I'm curious about the intent!
RangerWickett
Legend
Yeah, that's how I intended it.
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