D&D 4E 4E: Why now?

[TwinBahamut]

I think MoogleEmpMog has the right idea. There are just so many new ways the game could be improved, and WotC itself has proven that.

Keep in mind, Swift actions and Immediate actions are not part of the 3.5 core rules, but they are universally necessary to every new set of rules made since, and they help clarify and simplify many things. Also, new class design paradigms like the Warlock and the Tome of Battle stuff have changed D&D, and some of that change deserves to be core.

Also, keep in mind that other forms of entertainment, like the videogame industry, evolve far more rapidly than a new version every decade. Compare Final Fantasy 1 to modern RPGs like Ar Tonelico, Wild ARMS 5, or Persona 3. The level of mechanical complexity and narrative quality has undergone an unbelievable change, almost entirely for the better, in a relatively short span of time. Entire new consoles and paradigms of design change more rapidly, such that Nintendo is already on its fifth whole generation of consoles, and a 23-year-old like me is starting to feel like an old grognard in the videogame community. It might very well be that D&D is losing ground to videogames and MMORPGs, or even boardgames and trading card games, because they are evolving more rapidly than D&D.

If nothing else, compare D&D to Wizard's other property, Magic the Gathering, which has progressed quite far because it is constantly releasing entirely new editions and blocks all the time. Or, compare it to other RPGs, where people on these boards celebrate new editions.

I am beginning to think that 4E is coming too slowly.

 

[FireLance]

It's too soon for this to be a reaction to the reaction to Star Wars Saga, unless it's simply a statement of intent: "the D&D design team is now officially going to begin work on 4e."

Which might actually be the big announcement that's going to be made, although...

Far more likely that Saga was deliberately a testbed product as well as a release in its own right, and that the positive feedback from it served to guide the design process rather than the decision to begin that process.

... I would say the process of designing 4e has probably already begun, given all the rules innovations that we have seen in recent years. WotC is probably close to the point where they have enough basic rules innovations to create a game that is distinct from 3.5e, and all they need now are the minor "flavor" rules that make it into a product that is recognizably D&D. They might even be using the DI to garner feedback on this.

 

[thalmin]

It isn't a question of 2E selling more or less books than 3E or 3.5E, it is about current sales rates. 4E is all but guaranteed to sell more books in its first year of release than 3.5 is currently selling. None of the books ever sell as well as the core 3. And the only sales of the core books now are to the relatively few new players and the even fewer players picking up replacement/second copies.
As others have said, they supplements have pretty much been played out, and adventures alone can't support the company. Corporations don't stay in business long supporting non-profitable or under-performing lines.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

If nothing else, compare D&D to Wizard's other property, Magic the Gathering, which has progressed quite far because it is constantly releasing entirely new editions and blocks all the time. Or, compare it to other RPGs, where people on these boards celebrate new editions.

To be fair, all Magic the Gathering cards are 100% compatible with those released way back in '93. Magic has undergone, IIRC, four major rules changes, but Wizards made extensive effort to make those rules changes backwards compatible all the way to Alpha.

Which, also to be fair, is an EVEN BETTER model for 4e. Magic today is leaps and bounds better designed than Magic in 1993 or even Magic in 1999; D&D should be just as much improved, but products like Saga demonstrate that upgrading does not have to mean abandoning backwards-compatibility.

In other words, to those whose chief worry about 4e is "my 3e collection is too big to switch," chances are 4e will be both an improvement AND backwards-compatible.

Will it have new releases that mirror some of those 3e releases? Almost certainly. Will those be better? Does anyone seriously think Complete Warrior is a weaker product than Sword and Fist? I love some of the stuff in Sword and Fist, but it certainly isn't very well designed in comparison to its replacement. Nonetheless, in the only D&D game I'm currently in, my character will soon acquire a level in a prestige class that was never reprinted after Sword and Fist - a class, incidentally, I would be just as happy to introduce to my Star Wars Saga game.

 

[Xyxox]

By combining new crunch with online subscription fluff, they do the best of all worlds.

Printing costs are a high consideration here and profit margins on printed content are only high enough with the crunch.

The fluff never sells enough to generate the real profit margins, hence you go to a subscription model for fluff.

It's a dead on attempt to maximize profits based upon the existing business model of tabletop gaming. By introducing it the way they are, they'll maximize the profits.

 

[Xyxox]

It isn't a question of 2E selling more or less books than 3E or 3.5E, it is about current sales rates. 4E is all but guaranteed to sell more books in its first year of release than 3.5 is currently selling. None of the books ever sell as well as the core 3. And the only sales of the core books now are to the relatively few new players and the even fewer players picking up replacement/second copies.
As others have said, they supplements have pretty much been played out, and adventures alone can't support the company. Corporations don't stay in business long supporting non-profitable or under-performing lines.

Most of those 4E sales will be hard core crunch in the core books.

Then they generate the fluff revenue via the online channel.

 

[Asmor]

Or, compare it to other RPGs, where people on these boards celebrate new editions.

That's something I was thinking about as well... Look at all the other games that have revised themselves in the interim. Hell, look at all the d20-based games, made from the foundations D&D laid, which have gone and revised themselves. Mutants & Masterminds, for example. Then you've got the second biggest name in RPGs, White Wolf, doing an entire reboot of not one game, but almost their entire line.

Of course, I think it's worth pointing out that this isn't a perfect comparison... D&D is in a league of its own. Nobody invests as much in other games as D&D players do, because it's simply not possible. Even relatively large successes are unlikely to make even a dozen sourcebooks, while D&D has hundreds. Of course people are going to be more emotional when they've invested hundreds or even thousands of dollars in the game, as opposed to maybe 100-200 tops.

 

[Moggthegob]

yah well this is a game and when a gam becoems business i say good night. I for one will not pay a monthly subscription fee. it what separatesus from wow heads is that we lay face to face.

 

[Agamon]

In other words, to those whose chief worry about 4e is "my 3e collection is too big to switch," chances are 4e will be both an improvement AND backwards-compatible.

3E is backwards-compatible, too. I've ran a few 1E adventures in 3E. My group converted their PCs from the 2E/3E hybrid we were playing to 3E. The problem is it's a pain in the backside. Even converting 3E to 3.5E can be a task (seen the RttToEE conversion? Yikes, it's huge!)

D&D is a lot more complex than MtG. Backwards compatibility is possible, even likely. But if the changes are going to be significant enough to warrant a new edition, it won't be easy. And since 3.5E is still a great game, it's just easier to play that.

 

[Agamon]

yah well this is a game and when a gam becoems business i say good night. I for one will not pay a monthly subscription fee. it what separatesus from wow heads is that we lay face to face.

Hate to break it to you, but this game has always been a business, since it was a twinkle in Gary's eye. I have no problem with WotC putting out 4E now, it is a good business decision. I just won't be much of a customer, myself.