D&D 4E 4E: Why now?

[MoogleEmpMog]

3E is backwards-compatible, too. I've ran a few 1E adventures in 3E. My group converted their PCs from the 2E/3E hybrid we were playing to 3E. The problem is it's a pain in the backside. Even converting 3E to 3.5E can be a task (seen the RttToEE conversion? Yikes, it's huge!)

Converting from 2e to 3e is a pain in the rear. As a Spelljammer enthusiast, I'm well aware of this.

Converting from 3e to 3.5e is almost never necessary. Just because RttToEE required a lot to make it technically correct in the new system does not mean you couldn't have run it exactly as-written.

Converting from 3.5 to Star Wars Saga Edition is ALSO almost never necessary, although it's sometimes desirable. You could run most of RttToEE in SWSE without changing the stats in the module, while benefiting from greatly improved gameplay, character creation and in-play mechanics. The only exceptions would be special abilities that aren't shared between the lines, such as Incorporeal.

D&D is a lot more complex than MtG. Backwards compatibility is possible, even likely. But if the changes are going to be significant enough to warrant a new edition, it won't be easy. And since 3.5E is still a great game, it's just easier to play that.

I disagree that D&D is more complex than MtG. Magic has a lot more interactivity in its rules (and actual money on the line!), although those rules appear simpler on the surface.

In light of the games that have come out since 3.5, I cannot consider it a 'great game' anymore. SWSE proves that a much game can remain functionally backwards-compatible while making significant changes.

 

[Agamon]

I disagree that D&D is more complex than MtG. Magic has a lot more interactivity in its rules (and actual money on the line!), although those rules appear simpler on the surface.

MtG is a rules lite, but heavy game, not unlike Chess or Go. Well, rules lite in a sense that there are few rules. The way the rules interact is what makes it more complex. D&D, however, just has a lot of rules. And the more rules there are, the more that can change, the harder the conversion.

In light of the games that have come out since 3.5, I cannot consider it a 'great game' anymore. SWSE proves that a much game can remain functionally backwards-compatible while making significant changes.

Well, compared to 2E, it's the Taj Mahal. Can it be improved? Of course. But just like my lightning fast video card could be upgraded to whatever just came out last week, I don't think it's necessary.

 

[TwinBahamut]

MtG is a rules lite, but heavy game, not unlike Chess or Go. Well, rules lite in a sense that there are few rules. The way the rules interact is what makes it more complex. D&D, however, just has a lot of rules. And the more rules there are, the more that can change, the harder the conversion.

I can't really agree with that... Certainly, Magic feels rules-light because all the rules are self-contained on their own cards, but the sum total of every mechanic and rule is essentially a laundry list of every individual card. It is a lot of stuff, and there is more of it with each block. Yet, it is easy to manage, since it is so self-contained and builds upon limited core mechanics.

It really isn't a bad model to follow.

It isn't much like Go or Chess, though. Go has fewer rules than there are phases of action in a single MtG turn. And other than the slight complexities of Ko, Komi, and handicap, it is absurdly simple. Place stones, capture stones, count up points when you don't want to place stones any more.

 

[Agamon]

I can't really agree with that... Certainly, Magic feels rules-light because all the rules are self-contained on their own cards, but the sum total of every mechanic and rule is essentially a laundry list of every individual card. It is a lot of stuff, and there is more of it with each block. Yet, it is easy to manage, since it is so self-contained and builds upon limited core mechanics.

It really isn't a bad model to follow.

It isn't much like Go or Chess, though. Go has fewer rules than there are phases of action in a single MtG turn. And other than the slight complexities of Ko, Komi, and handicap, it is absurdly simple. Place stones, capture stones, count up points when you don't want to place stones any more.

Sorry, I didn't mean to compare it straight across to Go or Chess, just that it is rules lite but a heavy game, like those two (and maybe not as lite as those two, but lite, nonetheless). And I mean the core game. The original Revised rulebook that came with a starter deck was pretty tiny. But clarification on how those rules worked with each other was needed and a larger rulebook was released. Now the online rulebook is freakin' huge, to take into account every possibility. With money on the line, that amount of precision is necessary. Still, the core game doesn't have many more actual rules than Revised did back in the day. Adding in all the new rules from expansions makes gives it a lot more rules, of course, plus more interaction, needing more clarification on how they work together.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Of course, I think it's worth pointing out that this isn't a perfect comparison... D&D is in a league of its own.

But even within D&D, there was much of a change. The original 3e designers are not really well-represented in WotC anymore, but newer designers, like Mike Mearls are there, and doing well.

We have seen an evolution within 3.5: Newer base classes, with their new "no dead levels" philosophy, their spontaneous spell lists (warmage/dread necro/beguiler a.s.o.), per-encounter classes (warlock, Tome of Battle, to an extent the binder)... they even revised the format for classes, magic items, spells and monsters.

I have no doubt, that 3.5e would look a lot different (and probably better), if designed right now - but now, we have (perhaps conflicting) design, from original 3e, from the 3.5 revision and from newer books. That's a good time for a re-design, to get all classes, all rules, all design paradigms on a common ground again.

Cheers, LT.

 

[delericho]

I've said it before : It was "impossible" to create an online character generator under current 3.5 rules for DI.

With 4E, they will start only with (simpler hopefully) core rules and add others as the products are released.

That was my thinking as well. If WotC are serious about making the software tools part of the DI a success, then the time to do 4e is now.

 

[Khairn]

That was my thinking as well. If WotC are serious about making the software tools part of the DI a success, then the time to do 4e is now.

Very true. Its a smart business decision. Integrate online support into the very fabric of 4E so that from the beginning players are accustomed to paying monthly subscription fee's to play their table top RPG. Trying to use the DI to support 3E would have been too much trouble as most customers / players were accustomed to creating characters and adventures themselves.

 

[howandwhy99]

Simple question: why now? Even if "now" is actually a year from now, which seems reasonable, why now?

I'm not personally of the opinion that the current D&D incarnation has jumped the shark and deserves to be put down, as 2E certainly did when 3E was announced. And I have a hard time buying that this is a minor essentially backwards compatible upgrade as was 3.5. So why now?

It's not what I prefer anymore. And I'm guessing sales are nowhere near what they were 2000-2004. Part of that reason is the game is no longer what many others prefer anymore too. Keep your fingers crossed for feat-by-level, spell-by-level, and monster compatibility between the two editions. Ya grognard

 

[Razz]

People say "Just continue your 3.5E game." But that is not what many of us are mad about. We know WotC won't FORCE us to play 4E.

I believe it's because we won't be receiving new game material to enhance our 3.5E games. No 3.5E books for new material for Tome of Battle, no Giantnomicon for 3.5E, no 3.5E Complete Warrior 2...nothing. We've been abandoned and all support material will be for 4E, a system I definitely will not switch to.

If I can take 4E and change it to 3.5E rather easily with not much work I'll consider 4E. If I can take ALL my 3.5E material and easily adapt it to 4E, I'll consider 4E. The change needs to be a revision like 3.0E was to 3.5E is for me to be interested.

Otherwise, WotC can rot away at its core for all I care. How long will it be before 4.5E or 5E? It's only been 5 years since 3.5e was released...expect to see 5E in the year 2011, everyone!

 

[TerraDave]

Basically what has been said

1)Obvious (and not so obvious) stuff has been released

2)Desire to make online networking (and subscribing) central to the game

but there may also be

3) Fixes can be made in the rules that improve game play