D&D 4E 4E's aggressive pace: Too much, too fast?

[AGFlynn]

Just some brief comments on the looming fourpocalypse.
I've been with this game as player, DM and designer for more than 30 years and have generally embraced change as good. But this time I wonder if WotC has not bitten off more than it can chew.
Initially, I was outraged at the mere idea of another edition coming so close on the heels of 3.5. It looked like corporate pressure was being put on the brand to perform better, make Hasbro more money, etc., etc., you know, the typical knee-jerk reaction.
I've softened my opinion after a long look at the changes proposed. After publicly decrying the suggestion of a 4th Edition, I'm now grudgingly admitting that it looks like there are good people who have the best interests of a venerable brand in mind and want to make it better, stronger, faster. Yes, magic needed a major overhaul. So too classes.
But here's what I'm wondering - is the change just too massive for the current design team to handle? Is the timetable too tight?
From WotC comments I've read, nothing is yet set in stone, playtesting is in full swing and yet there's a Q2 2008 dealine coming like a steam train. Everything is getting an overhaul. Much of the rumoured and confirmed change looks promising. But there are a mountain of mechanical rules to be considered, topped off with another mountain of flavour changes.
That tight timeline means many, many last-minute decisions will be made. So will mistakes *cough* warlord *cough.*
Why not take longer, guys? I'm pretty sure we can wait. Why not move the publishing date to 2009? You know, take your time and get it right? Ditch all of the flavour changes, or most anyway, and concentrate on the core rules.
Am I nuts? Can we not wait just a little longer so there's less - or at least less cumbersome - errata down the line? Anyone else worried about this?

 

[Wormwood]

Why not take longer, guys? I'm pretty sure we can wait. Why not move the publishing date to 2009? You know, take your time and get it right?

Which would mean a year and a half of depressed 3.5 sales, not just seven months.

Ditch all of the flavour changes, or most anyway, and concentrate on the core rules.

I like the flavor changes. I WANT the flavor changes. I'm not alone.

Anyone else worried about this?

I worry that I may have set my expectations too high.

 

[med stud]

I can't see why, really... It took three years for WotC to create 3.0 from the time they took TSR over and it looks like they have spent four years to create 4e. 3e also felt to me much like uncharted territory in that they made a D&D that tried to go for balance for the first time and they had that with them when they started out on creating this edition.

Also it looks like they have a bunch of the top designers of D&D in this project and if those designers deemed this project managable in time for mid 2008 I think there's a good chance that they are finished by that time.

EDIT: I didn't see what you said about flavour changes. I can't see how a flavour change would be hard to get out in time in the same way as the rules. Noone can really abuse a flavour change and you won't find loop holes in flavour changes, so I can't see why they wouldn't change flavour if they deem it necessary. That's from a neutral POV, personally I have always been aggravated by traditional D&D flavour so I'm very happy about the changes

 

[AGFlynn]

Which would mean a year and a half of depressed 3.5 sales, not just seven months.

Sure, but I'm pretty sure the corporation could weather that. It's inevitable. The paradox is that there's a real need for user feedback for develpment of this product, and once you let the cat out, sales of the previous edition will falter.
Besides, that's not our problem, it's WotC's. Hell, if 4E is bad what happens to sales of that product?

I like the flavor changes. I WANT the flavor changes. I'm not alone.

Flavour's cheap and easy. Correcting rules blunders is not.

I worry that I may have set my expectations too high.

Precisely.

 

[Mercule]

Nah. I think it'll be done on time. Anything "not written in stone" at this point is likely just things like "should skill focus be +2 or +3" or "should magic missile be at-will, 1st level per-encounter, or 2nd level per-encounter?" Most, if not all, of the big rocks are done. I don't really question that.

What I question is whether what they end up with is what I want to play. But, I won't be able to answer that until June.

 

[vazanar]

I can't see why, really... It took three years for WotC to create 3.0 from the time they took TSR over and it looks like they have spent four years to create 4e. 3e also felt to me much like uncharted territory in that they made a D&D that tried to go for balance for the first time and they had that with them when they started out on creating this edition.

Also it looks like they have a bunch of the top designers of D&D in this project and if those designers deemed this project managable in time for mid 2008 I think there's a good chance that they are finished by that time.

3.0 was finished on time and we needed 3.5
Now 3.5 needs to be changed to 4.0 (by and by has 3.5 really been out for 4 years? Just doesnt feel that long

My guess is pretty fast we will see fixes come out on DI. We wont have a 4.5 they say, so it will be smaller fixes. Which to be honest is to be expected. No matter how well they playtest it, the real test is when it hits the general public.

I'm more nervous about the DI programs. I like the sound of them (encounter, character, etc) But that is uncharted territory and may have to short of a development time between June. They will need the full rules for a lot of those programs.

 

[AGFlynn]

It took three years for WotC to create 3.0 from the time they took TSR over and it looks like they have spent four years to create 4e.

It looks like they started thinking about 4E four years ago. By the team's own admission, there will be a lot of decisions made between now and publication.

Also it looks like they have a bunch of the top designers of D&D in this project and if those designers deemed this project managable in time for mid 2008 I think there's a good chance that they are finished by that time.

Publishing is one of the most uncertain industries in the world, when it comes to meeting deadlines. The best publishing teams in the world struggle with authors, editing, budgets, physical plant, printers, shippers, etc. Yes, there's a crack team on this. But don't think they are infallible when it comes to getting it all done on time.

 

[AGFlynn]

Nah. I think it'll be done on time. Anything "not written in stone" at this point is likely just things like "should skill focus be +2 or +3" or "should magic missile be at-will, 1st level per-encounter, or 2nd level per-encounter?" Most, if not all, of the big rocks are done. I don't really question that.

What I question is whether what they end up with is what I want to play. But, I won't be able to answer that until June.

I think you're being optimistic that the only changes still to be made are minor. Besides if there are 15,000 minor changes waiting, that adds up to a couple of major changes.

So, could you wait until next Christmas if there was a better chance of getting a better product?

 

[Stormtalon]

If you browse thru the new Races & Classes book, there's a timeline of 4th Ed development right in the very front. From looking at that, most of the really heavy work was already done by the time the August announcement hit, and now is just refinement and tweaking. I don't think June is at all unrealistic, based on the info we've seen so far.

Then again, I could be a raving optimist, too.
Stranger things HAVE happened....

 

[Ktulu]

It looks like they started thinking about 4E four years ago. By the team's own admission, there will be a lot of decisions made between now and publication.



Publishing is one of the most uncertain industries in the world, when it comes to meeting deadlines. The best publishing teams in the world struggle with authors, editing, budgets, physical plant, printers, shippers, etc. Yes, there's a crack team on this. But don't think they are infallible when it comes to getting it all done on time.

And you might be too pessimistic.

I think they'll make the deadline, if only because WotC has been pretty much spot on through 3e with making product deadlines.

I can also see how this can look like a huge project but, remember, they're not designing a new gaming system, they're revamping the d20 system. I don't think it will be as massive as we all think once we see it. I suppose it will be much more solid than 3e was.

Ktulu