D&D 4E 4E's aggressive pace: Too much, too fast?

[AGFlynn]

And you might be too pessimistic.

Ktulu

Yep, probably. Certainly hope so. So, er, I'm optimistic about my pessimism?

 

[Dausuul]

And you might be too pessimistic.

I think they'll make the deadline, if only because WotC has been pretty much spot on through 3e with making product deadlines.

I can also see how this can look like a huge project but, remember, they're not designing a new gaming system, they're revamping the d20 system. I don't think it will be as massive as we all think once we see it. I suppose it will be much more solid than 3e was.

Ktulu

I am also optimistic, but for a very different reason. I consider the changes in store for 4E to be at least as dramatic as the changes that were made in 3E; however, I think the art of game design has improved greatly over the past few years, and I also think the new system will be much more unified than the old.

The change from 2E to 3E was mainly about revising the game "engine," while keeping the details of the specific system. The class rules for fighters, wizards, and clerics in 3E are not all that different from the same classes in 2E; it's the game engine underneath them that changed.

A lot of the balance problems of 3E stemmed from this. For example, consider the way arcane casters in 3E can dominate combat by using save-or-lose/save-or-suck spells in place of direct damage. This happened because most of the spell list was carried over wholesale from 2E. Back in 2E, hit points didn't scale nearly as fast. At the same time, all saving throws had fixed DCs, meaning that a powerful monster was almost guaranteed to make its saves. Therefore, direct damage was stronger and save-or-lose was much weaker. The changes to the 3E game engine cranked up the power of save-or-lose magic to insane levels, while cutting direct damage off at the knees.

In 4E, the game engine is staying largely as is, but the details of the system are being totally redone. It's a mistake to suppose that the details are any less important than the engine. However, the new details are being designed to match the engine, rather than being carried over from an earlier edition. Because of this, the system ought to run much more smoothly than it did in the hybrid beast that was 3E.

 

[jaer]

I think that they are still making a lot of little changes (names, pluses, what levels things come at), but WotC also realized just how much stock people put into these things. If they gave us a statted out Warlock and then end up switching it before it comes out, even just swapping out some abilities and changing a +3 to a +2, people would would complain and rant about being lied to. All kinds of stuff.

A simple "this is still a work in progress so it might change" doesn't seem to get through. Saying "we can't reveal this info because it is in constant flux" makes it sound worse than it is, but it stops many of the "why don't you just give us some solid info" complaints. There are many good reasons to keep tight-lipped about things, and exaggerating just how "un-nailed down" things are is a good way to be able to stay tight lipped.

If you don't understand how much complaining people can do about "things that are being tested" then you obviously don't read the WoW forums when a new patch is in the works. The amount of complaining (about changes, about what is not being changed, about what is being changed back) is horrendous!

 

[Scribble]

But here's what I'm wondering - is the change just too massive for the current design team to handle? Is the timetable too tight?
From WotC comments I've read, nothing is yet set in stone, playtesting is in full swing and yet there's a Q2 2008 dealine coming like a steam train. Everything is getting an overhaul. Much of the rumoured and confirmed change looks promising. But there are a mountain of mechanical rules to be considered, topped off with another mountain of flavour changes.

But there are a few things to first consider.

1. The game isn't changing from the core d20 system. We've been playing in the d20 system for over 8 years, and by now a lot of the basic design elements that work within that system seem to have come to light. Now it's just tinkering with the math elements to get them to react right.

2. A lot of the systems being put into place are systems tested in other products. (Bo9S being one of the biggest.) So now it's just a question of re-cojiggering the rest of the classes to utilize those systems. So it's a little less stressful. They don't have to test the new system quite as much. They know it works, now they just need to shape it so it works on a larger scale... like building a car. You know how to build an engine. You don't have to experiement to find out how to make combustion move mechanical parts anymore. You're just configuring it to work best with what you want out of it.

3. Star Wars Saga is almost like a 3.75. Sure it's not D&D but they're saying it's a mini preview of the new system. So I see that almost as a test release, that they can look at and see what flaws might hit...

 

[Gundark]

So, could you wait until next Christmas if there was a better chance of getting a better product?

Well the short answer is of course yes. And truth be told if they delayed the release until Chirstmas then they'd have more time to playtest so yes we'd probably get a finer polished product.

The real question is SHOULD WotC wait until next Christmas? If they wait how much more polished of a product will we get? If it's not significant then is it silly to wait? I mean they could push the release back to Christmas 2010 and release an even more polished product. My point is there comes a point where they have to release the product, flaws included. Are they ready by June 2008? Only they know for sure.

I think you're being optimistic that the only changes still to be made are minor

And I think you're being too pessimistic

 

[GreatLemur]

If 4e really sounds like too much change, I think you should play a more diverse array of RPGs. Seriously, it actually doesn't sound like enough change, to me. They're sticking closer to 3e than a lot of people's houserules do.

 

[Gundark]

I am also optimistic, but for a very different reason [....]

In 4E, the game engine is staying largely as is, but the details of the system are being totally redone. It's a mistake to suppose that the details are any less important than the engine. However, the new details are being designed to match the engine, rather than being carried over from an earlier edition. Because of this, the system ought to run much more smoothly than it did in the hybrid beast that was 3E.

I have to say I agree

 

[DaveMage]

At this point, the ship has sailed.

It will be out in June 2008.

We'll know how people take to it by feedback at Origins and Gen Con. Those going will be able to get a nice read from fellow gamers on how the game is perceived. If the overall tone is positive, then the game can probably be considered a success and vice-versa.

 

[AGFlynn]

....I think the art of game design has improved greatly over the past few years, and I also think the new system will be much more unified than the old.

Dausuul, I think you've hit on the critical reason to have optimism about the new build here -the OGL, by opening up the creative sluice gates to outside creators, forced game design to new heights while giving a huge number of people insight into just how difficult it is. It also ratcheted up the pressure on WotC to get good at doing their jobs, since the demand for higher standards in design escalated.
I think they've done a fairly good job, despite all of our bitching over the years.

 

[Storminator]

Well the short answer is of course yes. And truth be told if they delayed the release until Chirstmas then they'd have more time to playtest so yes we'd probably get a finer polished product.

No, the short answer is they should bust their behinds to get it out now! I don't want to wait until Xmas 2008.

PS