4e's [W] damage discrepancy

[Felon]

This can't be the first post about this, so I apologize for rehashing. You can feel free to redirect me to an established thread. OK, there's the disclaimer.

So, I'm playing a warlock in a party along with a warlord, a rogue, two fighters, and a paladin. We've been playing brand new characters since 4e came out, and most of us just hit 3rd level (make of that what you will).

I notice that when the martial characters pop their dailies and encounter powers, they're getting at least as good of a damage output as my warlock. That's because when they pop an encounter, they could 2{W} while I get 2d6 or 2d8. When they pop a daily, they get 3{W} while the best pick I have is 3d10 with 5 ongoing damage (and I can't stress enough, that's exceptional damage for the warlock's dailies). That W variable represents a lot of leverage. The warlord's got a maul so he's rolling 2d6 for his W. The two fighters are using a greatsword and greataxe, respectively, rolling d12's for their W. When I throw in my curse damage--my supposed edge--I'm basically just trying to fill the gap between us.

In general, it seems that the class powers that must use fixed damage dice (i.e. the warlock and wizard, and to a lesser degree the cleric) seem to predominantly have to use a lot a d6 and d8 for damage (doubled for encounters, tripled for dailies), while someone with access to military weapon proficiency feat can easily trump that. And that's not even taking into account heroic tier feats that will net them +2 to +4 extra damage, or the weapons that become available if the Adventurer's Vault is in play. It gets really ugly really quickly.

I certainly can't say I'm unhappy with my character. If nothing else, he can pull his weight by virtue of being virtually the only party member with range. OTOH, I don't think anyone is thinking that my role in the group is outstrike them.

Anyway, would love to hear some level-headed points of view.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Yes, the [W] effects are pretty good, damage-wise. But I think fixed damage abilities have the advantaged of often being area and ranged attacks, often with extra status effects.

Plus, some implements have really interesting magical properties, like the various rods that do give the warlock an extra punch. For example the warlock in my group loves the rod of reaving - it's his "minion popper", which he loves, because it gives him his temporary hit points from the pact.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

A warlock is not going to be topping the other players encounter or dailies very often if those x[w] abilities are being used with a large die weapon.

However, The At Will Eldritch blast with the extra die from the Warlock curse will typically top out every other characters weapon attacks. That is better than any other character except a Ranger using Hunters Quarry. On top of that, you are also going to be attacking Ref or Fort most of the time. Almost all of the x[w] powers are going to be against AC.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Umbran]

I haven't looked at the powers, specifically, but I think you'll also find that most of those martial exploits are vs AC, while the spells are typically against some other defense - and the AC tends to be a bit higher, giving the martial powers a slightly higher chance of failing.

So, it likely all evens out in the long run.

 

[Felon]

Yes, the [W] effects are pretty good, damage-wise. But I think fixed damage abilities have the advantaged of often being area and ranged attacks, often with extra status effects.

Well, there are W area and ranged powers out there. Close bursts and blasts for the defenders, ranged and area for the strikers.

Plus, some implements have really interesting magical properties, like the various rods that do give the warlock an extra punch. For example the warlock in my group loves the rod of reaving - it's his "minion popper", which he loves, because it gives him his temporary hit points from the pact.

Well, again, that's not something the W-power classes don't benefit from--there are good magic items for everyone.

A warlock is not going to be topping the other players encounter or dailies very often if those x[w] abilities are being used with a large die weapon.

However, The At Will Eldritch blast with the extra die from the Warlock curse will typically top out every other characters weapon attacks. That is better than any other character except a Ranger using Hunters Quarry. On top of that, you are also going to be attacking Ref or Fort most of the time. Almost all of the x[w] powers are going to be against AC.

My experience has been that since weapon powers get the benefit of a proficiency bonus while implement powers don't, targeting a defense other than AC is generally a wash--unless the weapon power actually targets something than AC (like the rogues's Precise Strike), in which case the weapon power comes out ahead.

The Eldritch Blast does OK though, as do Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke with their double-dipping Con damage, and Dire Radiance's radiant damage is always handy against undead.

I think the warlord with his maul and Dwarven Weapon Training just wind up being a powerhouse combo. What exactly is the trade-off for the maul's exceptional damage anyway?

 

[Staffan]

I notice that when the martial characters pop their dailies and encounter powers, they're getting at least as good of a damage output as my warlock. That's because when they pop an encounter, they could 2{W} while I get 2d6 or 2d8.

I think the Warlock in particular is a bit low on damage for a striker, but on the other hand he gets lots of special effects. Looking at level 1 dailies, the fighter has the choice between:
3W damage
2W damage and healing surge
2W damage and +2 to hit/+4 damage against that target for the rest of the combat.

The warlock has:
Bunch of extra hp and everyone near you for the rest of the fight take 1d6 damage
3d8 damage plus slide 3 (and you can keep moving them around with minor actions)
3d6 damage plus immobilize until EOYNT, and regardless of hit or miss the target takes -2 to Will until he saves.
3d10 damage plus ongoing 5

The fighter's damage may be comparable (especially with a 2H weapon), but you get to do extra stuff. Also, 2H weapons are generally pretty suboptimal for a fighter - a fighter really wants those 2 points of AC/Reflex more than extra damage.

I haven't looked at the powers, specifically, but I think you'll also find that most of those martial exploits are vs AC, while the spells are typically against some other defense - and the AC tends to be a bit higher, giving the martial powers a slightly higher chance of failing.

While there are a few exceptions (e.g. the Rogue's Piercing Strike), powers that go against AC almost always have the Weapon keyword, while those that go against other defenses have the Implement keyword. For most monsters, AC is 2-3 points higher than the other defenses, which is pretty much exactly the bonus you get from weapon proficiency.

Of course, a well-rounded caster-type will have powers targeting multiple different defenses, which gives a bit of an edge. The fighter might have Cleave (Str vs AC) and Tide of Iron (Str vs AC) as his at-wills, which means he'll hit the Goblin Warrior on an 11+ regardless of which one he uses (+3 Str, +3 prof, AC 17). The warlock, on the other hand, might have Dire Radiance (Con vs Fort) and Eldritch Blast (Con or Cha vs Ref), and thus be able to use whichever is most suitable to the current foe and thus hit the Goblin Warrior on a 10+ with the Dire Radiance instead of 12+ with Eldritch Blast (+3 Con, Fort 13, Ref 15).

 

[Staffan]

I think the warlord with his maul and Dwarven Weapon Training just wind up being a powerhouse combo. What exactly is the trade-off for the maul's exceptional damage anyway?

Comparing the major 2H weapons:
Greataxe: d12 damage, +2 proficiency, high crit.
Greatsword: d10 damage, +3 proficiency.
Maul or Flail: 2d6 damage, +2 proficiency, nothing extra.

Do not underestimate that extra proficiency bonus. Often when you attack, whatever special effect you're delivering is more important than your actual damage. Especially for a warlord, where the point is to set up the opponent for the cool stuff the rest of the party can do to it.

 

[Lancelot]

My experience with the warlock as a DM is that they are perhaps the most effective of current character classes. Very hard to kill (ranged attacks, concealment, lots of HP/surges if Con-build), lots of funky options, great flavor, and excellent damage output.

The raw [W] power doesn't tell the whole story. Warlock's curse adds to the damage output vs non-strikers, and they have more options against minions/swarms. Powers like Armor of Agathys are just brutal.

Compared to the other strikers, the rogue and 2-weapon ranger may have better damage output, but they are also more vulnerable. My group has seen four dead rogues/rangers; "melee striker" is becoming our slang for "short-lived".

 

[Felon]

I think the Warlock in particular is a bit low on damage for a striker, but on the other hand he gets lots of special effects. Looking at level 1 dailies, the fighter has the choice between:
3W damage
2W damage and healing surge
2W damage and +2 to hit/+4 damage against that target for the rest of the combat.

The warlock has:
Bunch of extra hp and everyone near you for the rest of the fight take 1d6 damage
3d8 damage plus slide 3 (and you can keep moving them around with minor actions)
3d6 damage plus immobilize until EOYNT, and regardless of hit or miss the target takes -2 to Will until he saves.
3d10 damage plus ongoing 5

The fighter's damage may be comparable (especially with a 2H weapon), but you get to do extra stuff. Also, 2H weapons are generally pretty suboptimal for a fighter - a fighter really wants those 2 points of AC/Reflex more than extra damage.

The issue becomes this: if the warlock is having trouble out-strking the W defender and leader, then how is he supposed to perform against the W strikers? You point out that the warlock gets riders that the fighter doesn't. But doesn't a rogue get similar riders? I think the ranger is more of a super-damage monster (now more than ever since Adventurer's Vault dropped the greatbow into his lap), but doesn't he get his share of riders too?

And remember, most weapons have inherent properties like High Crit or Versatile, which basically riders themselves.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

It isn't always about damage. Sure, a Fighter can deal tons of damage with a maul. If he hits. If. Meaning, he has to move up to a foe, defeat any kind of special powers it might protect itself with, and hit it's AC (likely it's highest defense).
A Warlock can safely do this from ~10 squares away (some infernal powers have less range, but typically the monster has to come to you) and warlock powers can be against Non-AC defenses, of which a monster likely has one achillies heel. The warlock is, in addtion to comperable damage, adding in a warlock's curse for added damage beyond what each power lists, AND many powers (fey especially) cause all sorts of nightmares for their foes. (Conditions, restrictions on actions, forced movement, etc)
The fighter can really dish out the damage, but the warlock has a bit of an easier time doing it, and is still potent even if dishing out damage won't take out the foe. (And won't be leaving himself right in the foe's reach after attacking)