4e's [W] damage discrepancy

[Spatula]

I think the warlord with his maul and Dwarven Weapon Training just wind up being a powerhouse combo. What exactly is the trade-off for the maul's exceptional damage anyway?

You have to be in melee to use it, and you're in melee with no shield.

But regarding the discrepancy, the big difference I think is that there is a ton of feats & now items for weapon users, and barely anything for the wizard & warlock (& devoted cleric). Which makes it strange (to me) why AV has such amazing out-of-the-gate power creep with the new weapons and why the first splat is for weapon users. Perhaps as 3e had some big mage-lovers on its design staff, 4e's designers have swung the other way...

 

[Felon]

For some reason, I'm getting the impression that the Warlord on your group is feeling much more frustrated than you.

He has what? +6 to hit?
(or +7 if his weapon is +1)

Does he ever hit with his encounter/daily powers?

Warlord: 3rd level, 18 Str, +1 maul. That's +8 vs. AC, Fort, Reflex.

Warlock: 3rd level, 18 Con, +1 implement. That's +6 vs. Fort or Reflex (gotta be a Cha warlock to attack Will).

Why would he be frustrated? Did I miss something somewhere? Why wouldn't he be hitting with his encounter or daily powers with that attack bonus?

 

[Cadfan]

You didn't exactly miss anything, but people are still going to raise their eyebrows at a warlord who isn't using a heavy blade. Accuracy is awfully important for a warlord because he gets extra benefits from successful hits.

 

[Felon]

You didn't exactly miss anything, but people are still going to raise their eyebrows at a warlord who isn't using a heavy blade. Accuracy is awfully important for a warlord because he gets extra benefits from successful hits.

Like I said, he's a dwarf with the dwarven weapon feat. He's hitting for x[2d6]+7. Seems happy rolling lots of d6's and still hitting most of the time.

 

[Felon]

You have to be in melee to use it, and you're in melee with no shield.

Which is true of any two-handed melee weapon, but it's the only one getting 2d6 damage. I feel it's somewhat fallacious to think that using a ranged attack means never getting into melee, particularly with how easy it is to charge someone in 4e, and how short the range on many warlock attacks are (5 or 10 squares). At any rate, the question was answered already.

But regarding the discrepancy, the big difference I think is that there is a ton of feats & now items for weapon users, and barely anything for the wizard & warlock (& devoted cleric). Which makes it strange (to me) why AV has such amazing out-of-the-gate power creep with the new weapons and why the first splat is for weapon users. Perhaps as 3e had some big mage-lovers on its design staff, 4e's designers have swung the other way...

I'll add to that; even the feats in the PHB seem a little more generous for W classes. Astral Fire and similar feats only add +1 damage, and only two types of damage. Weapon Focus will add +1 to virtually all of a W class's powers. The dwarf and elf weapon feats add +2. Power attack adds +2 or +3. Powerful charge adds +2. Superior Weapon Proficiency can offer an entire die upgrade for a weapon, and both sneak attack and hunter's quarry can have their dice upgraded. All-in-all, it seems like a very conscientious move. Not sure what was accomplished.

 

[Dausuul]

My gut feeling at the moment is that arcane and divine powers that just do xd6 or xd8 damage feel underpowered compared to the damage that people do with [W] powers, especially with the ease (a few gp) to get weapons with extra riders like high crit.

Speaking as the player of a 4th-level wizard who nearly matches the party fighter in damage per target, I have to disagree. (My scorching burst inflicts 1d6+7, his at-wills inflict 1d10+6.) The warlock specifically may or may not be underpowered - I haven't played one, so I'm not sure - but in general, I have seen no problems with casters underperforming in the damage department.

 

[Cadfan]

Right, right. I'm sure he's enjoying the high damage of his weapon.

But a lot of people are going to look at that character and say, "What? A dwarf warlord with a maul???" because 1) he's got no racial bonus to strength, 2) he's got no racial bonus to charisma, 3) he's got no racial bonus to intelligence, and 4) he's using a weapon with a lower proficiency bonus than he could have. His attack rolls are going to trail by 2 in comparison to an equivalent human warlord with a longsword. His damage will be higher by 2.5 per [W], but he's probably losing out overall.

In general, 2 points of attack for 2.5 points of damage is probably a bad trade. Its a particularly bad trade when you're playing a class that provides most of its value from extra bonuses that activate only on a hit.

 

[Spatula]

Which is true of any two-handed melee weapon, but it's the only one getting 2d6 damage. I feel it's somewhat fallacious to think that using a ranged attack means never getting into melee, particularly with how easy it is to charge someone in 4e, and how short the range on many warlock attacks are (5 or 10 squares).

Being on the front lines makes it more likely that you can be flanked, swarmed, and/or generally focus-fired. Which is fine for defenders - they're built to withstand it - but dicier for other characters unless they have a lot of escape mechanisms like the ranger and rogue. And there's nothing particularly special about rolling 2d6 for damage. It's slightly better than 1d12 and more "steady" but then the d12 weapon gets to do more on crits.

I'll add to that; even the feats in the PHB seem a little more generous for W classes. Astral Fire and similar feats only add +1 damage, and only two types of damage. Weapon Focus will add +1 to virtually all of a W class's powers. The dwarf and elf weapon feats add +2. Power attack adds +2 or +3. Powerful charge adds +2. Superior Weapon Proficiency can offer an entire die upgrade for a weapon, and both sneak attack and hunter's quarry can have their dice upgraded. All-in-all, it seems like a very conscientious move. Not sure what was accomplished.

Conscientious? or conscious?

The caster +1 dmg feats are even worse in that they have stat requirements - for stats that you're likely to not have much use for - and only applies to some of your spells. Whereas anyone can take weapon focus and it applies to all of your attacks.

 

[Felon]

Right, right. I'm sure he's enjoying the high damage of his weapon.

But a lot of people are going to look at that character and say, "What? A dwarf warlord with a maul???" because 1) he's got no racial bonus to strength, 2) he's got no racial bonus to charisma, 3) he's got no racial bonus to intelligence, and 4) he's using a weapon with a lower proficiency bonus than he could have. His attack rolls are going to trail by 2 in comparison to an equivalent human warlord with a longsword. His damage will be higher by 2.5 per [W], but he's probably losing out overall.

I see. Thanks for the perspective. Guess he figured that with the party's current makeup, he was going to play a leader. I don't know of any racial attack bonuses that apply to two-handed weapons, and I think he just likes to rack up multiples of that 2.5 with his encounters and dailies. I guess if he actually had poor to-hit chances it would be different, but simply not being as maxed-out as he could be isn't much of a bummer.

 

[Felon]

Speaking as the player of a 4th-level wizard who nearly matches the party fighter in damage per target, I have to disagree. (My scorching burst inflicts 1d6+7, his at-wills inflict 1d10+6.) The warlock specifically may or may not be underpowered - I haven't played one, so I'm not sure - but in general, I have seen no problems with casters underperforming in the damage department.

I think there are some distinctions made in this thread that you aren't taking into account in your post.

You have to use that d6, while using that d10 is the fighter opting not to deal more damage. Also, it's not clear where your 1 point discrepancy in bonus damage is, but all things being equal (ability scores, magic items), those bonuses would be the same, making it more like 1d6+7 versus 1d10+7.

Now, your example throws out an at-will. If you start looking at encounters and dailies for your characters, you're going to start seeing those dice double and triple, creating a much larger discrepancy.

Of course, the wizard has a lot more AoE than anyone else, so he can easily slough off lower average damage output for single targets, as long as there are squishies running around.

Btw, I'm multiclassing my warlock as wizard to gain some of that AoE. Of course, my lower Int is a problem.