4e's [W] damage discrepancy

[Felon]

My experience with the warlock as a DM is that they are perhaps the most effective of current character classes. Very hard to kill (ranged attacks, concealment, lots of HP/surges if Con-build), lots of funky options, great flavor, and excellent damage output.

In my career as a warlock, I've been reached and hit many times. My survival largely due to the high ratio of defenders in our little gang. The shadow-walk concealment sounds great, but it's really just a patch for having A) little armor and B) giving Int and Dex secondary priority to Con and/or Cha.

I'm not really bagging the class, just saying the W discrepancy needs some light shown on it. I don't think there's some major balancing compensation for the non-W classes that washes it all out. Maybe give those guys some feats that do for them what a Superior Weapon proficiency does for a {W] damage power.

 

[Digital M@]

I DMed a group with a 4E warlock and he did more damager per encounter than any other. Not attacking AC he hit almost every round and with good damage. He was the power house in the group. More often than not attacking Reflex in a combat is a 2+ point difference from AC. Calculate overall damage in combats and hit ratios and come back here.

The warlock in my group always used the same attack and I thought it looked boring to play, but I think that was because he built it to maxamize damage for that one attack.

 

[Storminator]

I think there's a subtle effect of having 6 players, and 3 high hp defenders. None of your melee guys emphasized defense. If there were only 4 PCs, someone would have likely picked a sword and board guy (and they might if they become more familiar with the system... I think 4e rewards shields more than 3.x).

If the fighters in your group were using longswords and battleaxes you wouldn't have much to complain about here.

PS

 

[Cadfan]

The warlock's damage is a little low in comparison to other ranged strikers (which is really just the archery ranger). In exchange, he gets a bunch of magical extra effects. I don't know what else to tell you except that its just how things are.

His damage exceeds that of the defender classes, unless they forgo defense in exchange for offense. In that case, its about equal, but he still gets his magical extras.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My gut feeling at the moment is that arcane and divine powers that just do xd6 or xd8 damage feel underpowered compared to the damage that people do with [W] powers, especially with the ease (a few gp) to get weapons with extra riders like high crit.

Personally I can't help feeling that it would have been better to stat up the orbs, wands, pact knives, rods and staffs along the same line as weapons. Give them a bonus to hit, an extra effect and possibly a base damage die along the way. Who knows how it would best work out mathematically, but it would be nice to see comparable things so that (e.g. off the top of my head and with no real thought put into it)

Wands - 1H, +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage
Orbs - 1H, +2 proficiency, 1d10 damage,
Staffs - 2H, +2 proficiency, 1d8 damage, high crit

this make them analogous to existing weapons (e.g. wands = swords, orbs = maces, staffs = axes) but with a lower damage die to reflect the general ability to hit more than one target with many powers.

To avoid redoing all the monster defences the proficiency bonus could be toned down to +1 and +0.

Then the implement attacks could do damage instead of xd6 damage.

I think it could be an interesting idea...

Cheers

 

[Felon]

The warlock's damage is a little low in comparison to other ranged strikers (which is really just the archery ranger). In exchange, he gets a bunch of magical extra effects. I don't know what else to tell you except that its just how things are.

His damage exceeds that of the defender classes, unless they forgo defense in exchange for offense. In that case, its about equal, but he still gets his magical extras.

I really have to question this argument that the warlock has some great extras that eclipse those that other classes (particularly W strikers) get. It feels like a quick-and-dirty rationalization. The rogue in my group has access to powers that can daze, slide, blind, slow, and knock targets prone. Juicy stuff. Plus, his damage is obscene. I think those kind of effects are endemic to strikers, not simply the warlock, and if he's coming up short on damage, then we're back to asking if there is an honest-to-god discrepancy.

 

[Felon]

My gut feeling at the moment is that arcane and divine powers that just do xd6 or xd8 damage feel underpowered compared to the damage that people do with [W] powers, especially with the ease (a few gp) to get weapons with extra riders like high crit.

Personally I can't help feeling that it would have been better to stat up the orbs, wands, pact knives, rods and staffs along the same line as weapons. Give them a bonus to hit, an extra effect and possibly a base damage die along the way. Who knows how it would best work out mathematically, but it would be nice to see comparable things so that (e.g. off the top of my head and with no real thought put into it)

Wands - 1H, +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage
Orbs - 1H, +2 proficiency, 1d10 damage,
Staffs - 2H, +2 proficiency, 1d8 damage, high crit

this make them analogous to existing weapons (e.g. wands = swords, orbs = maces, staffs = axes) but with a lower damage die to reflect the general ability to hit more than one target with many powers.

To avoid redoing all the monster defences the proficiency bonus could be toned down to +1 and +0.

Then the implement attacks could do damage instead of xd6 damage.

I think it could be an interesting idea...

Cheers

I think it's pure win, Plane.

 

[Zsig]

For some reason, I'm getting the impression that the Warlord on your group is feeling much more frustrated than you.

He has what? +6 to hit?
(or +7 if his weapon is +1)

Does he ever hit with his encounter/daily powers?

 

[Cadfan]

I really have to question this argument that the warlock has some great extras that eclipse those that other classes (particularly W strikers) get. It feels like a quick-and-dirty rationalization. The rogue in my group has access to powers that can daze, slide, blind, slow, and knock targets prone. Juicy stuff. Plus, his damage is obscene. I think those kind of effects are endemic to strikers, not simply the warlock, and if he's coming up short on damage, then we're back to asking if there is an honest-to-god discrepancy.

1. The best comparison is probably the archery ranger. Its the only other ranged striker. Using only ranged strikers avoids trying to figure out exactly how much its worth if a power can be used at a range of 5 or 10 versus if it is melee only.
2. Those effects exist, but come on. Not nearly in the same amount or with the same potency.

 

[Aristotle]

I think I would argue that a non-striker melee class built to effectively use a two hander is a hybrid striker. Yep they are going to do some damage, maybe even more than you some rounds... then again you have range and class features built to better facilitate the striker role than theirs. I guess I'd kind of expect it to be a wash, or just slightly in the striker's favor.