[4th ed] Clockwork Horrors now DEMONS? And Neogi...

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, devils are, in many ways, more horrendous than demons.



No, it's quite clear that the game is not limited to internally consistent ideas. I don't share your enthusiasm for this fact. Inconsistency itself is not what makes something cool, it isn't necessary for creativity, so there's no need for it. If you want a Demon Lord of Craft, that's fine, but don't claim that demons are all about entropy and destruction; rather, emphasize their chaotic nature and claim that they represent a wide variety of approaches to evil without centralized organization. My objection wasn't to a Demon Lord of Craft per se, it was to the inconsistency.

The examples you (and the Jester before you) gave are not really about daffodils, justice, and virtue. They're perversions of these things. And that's perfectly fine, because that works with demons. (In fact, I kinda like some of the examples the two of you give, good job.) But a perversion of justice is not justice. A perversion of virtue is not virtue. A perversion of daffodils... okay, maybe that one wasn't the best example, but the other two should make my point. The infinite layers of the Abyss shouldn't imply that there all things are possible in the Abyss - that simply doesn't follow.

Lol, and consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds... Forget it.

Mostly I just disagree with you. A spider is patient, cunning, and creative in the execution of its own ends. Its a perfectly fine model for a demon, the thing that lurks and waits and plots in the shadows, its goal absolute destruction, its tools anything, including great artifice.

Devils DON'T want to destroy you, they want to own you, to enslave you, to pervert you so that you become like them. Sure devils might easily create constructs, but a diabolic construct isn't about killing you, its about tricking you into falling into the hands the legions of Hell. It wouldn't be a horde of endlessly reproducing constructs that tear apart everything they contact and mindlessly make more of themselves. THAT is a very demonic concept.

I think your conception of demons is severely limited. They clearly DO plot and plan. You certainly are welcome to portray them as virtually mindless destruction, but it is in no way inconsistent with the 4e vision of them for a demon to be smart and even systematic and organized in a certain tactical fashion. And yes, the Abyss does spawn virtually everything possible. Albeit only in a warped and corrupted form, but there it is. The realm of Oublivae contains the ruins of every civilization that ever existed, a twisted sort of creativity.

 

[Barastrondo]

Again...well, I may not have mentioned this in this thread...I'm not buying any of the books to run 4ED.

I'm just reading this and going "huh?"

Well, if demons who don't have the patience for finework is a logical extrapolation of the 2e/3e concept that demons represent the embodiment of Chaotic Evil, demons that have the patience for finework is a logical extrapolation of the 4e concept that demons are corrupted primordial forces that work as antithesis to the other beings in the universe. With alignment no longer a major axis around which everything rotates, the differentiations come from things like "immortal vs. elemental" rather than "ultimate law vs. ultimate chaos."

Personally, I think there's nothing about the concept of "corrupted elemental" that precludes the ability to work in clockwork, as long as the elemental conception is varied enough to allow for, say, metal elementals. Of course, I prefer demons as aberrations instead. (I'm not that enthralled by the Far Realm or the Underdark, so demonic aberrations suit the kind of things I like to do.)

Now to be perfectly fair, if I didn't know anything about clockwork horrors and someone suggested "clockworks designed by infernals," my first thought would be that they'd be animated torture devices created by devils: clockwork tormentors, if you will. But if the concept of clockwork horrors is important, and the horde-genocide-swarming-destroyer archetype is what's vital, then yeah, I'd look at demons too.

And... now I am probably going to start brainstorming clockwork tormentors and a lord of Hell that would create them. These discussions go to profitable places!

 

[Gradine]

And while I like the line about "sheer chaos & demon spit"- do be sure to use that if you ever get the chance, 'cause that's DM description gold- I'm not buying chaos (a.k.a. entropy) holding anything together.

"This doesn't seem physically possible!" - Pvt. Jimmy, last words

As a DM I'm not entirely convinced that, with regards to all things unworldly, characters (or players) need to buy anything. As a DM, what I say goes. Period. In fact, I tend to believe that it actually adds to the mystery. "How does that even work?" the players say, as their characters get torn apart by the unnatural creatures. What are they going to do? Disbelieve illusion?

"What I consider to be true" ends up not being worth much when the thing in question is stabbing you in the face.

 

[Philosopher]

Lol, and consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds... Forget it.

Yes, I'm familiar with this quip. It's not an argument. At best it's an excuse to ignore legitimate criticism. Plus, it's an ad hominem attack.

Mostly I just disagree with you. A spider is patient, cunning, and creative in the execution of its own ends. Its a perfectly fine model for a demon, the thing that lurks and waits and plots in the shadows, its goal absolute destruction, its tools anything, including great artifice.

Devils DON'T want to destroy you, they want to own you, to enslave you, to pervert you so that you become like them. Sure devils might easily create constructs, but a diabolic construct isn't about killing you, its about tricking you into falling into the hands the legions of Hell. It wouldn't be a horde of endlessly reproducing constructs that tear apart everything they contact and mindlessly make more of themselves. THAT is a very demonic concept.

I think your conception of demons is severely limited. They clearly DO plot and plan. You certainly are welcome to portray them as virtually mindless destruction, but it is in no way inconsistent with the 4e vision of them for a demon to be smart and even systematic and organized in a certain tactical fashion. And yes, the Abyss does spawn virtually everything possible. Albeit only in a warped and corrupted form, but there it is. The realm of Oublivae contains the ruins of every civilization that ever existed, a twisted sort of creativity.

And here you completely ignore what I wrote in the passage you quoted back. I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, I'm familiar with this quip. It's not an argument. At best it's an excuse to ignore legitimate criticism. Plus, it's an ad hominem attack.

Nah, its a quip, and a reminder not to be so worried about perfect consistency in a fantasy game.

And here you completely ignore what I wrote in the passage you quoted back. I have nothing more to say to you.

You were the one that objected that my conception of a demon was actually a devil. I didn't ignore anything, I addressed exactly what you said.

Hey, it's no biggie to me really if we do it different ways. I'm pretty sure we all said our thing.

 

[Scribble]

Demons don't create anything except gummi bears. I heard they loves them some gummi bears.

And vodka, but they don't make that. They buy lots of vodka and soak the gummi bears in it then sell it to kids.

Mostly they eat the gummi bears themselves though.

Because they like them. A lot.

 

[the Jester]

If for some reason or other the demonic take on clockwork horrors doesn't work for you- they've been a MAJOR component of my campaign for years, and have a well-established non-demonic origin and history- you can do what I'm going to do and call the demonic version a rip-off/imitation of the original.

Demons : clockwork horrors

as

China: music CDs.

 

[the Jester]

Demons don't create anything except gummi bears. I heard they loves them some gummi bears.

And vodka, but they don't make that. They buy lots of vodka and soak the gummi bears in it then sell it to kids.

Mostly they eat the gummi bears themselves though.

Because they like them. A lot.

I take it you read WG 13: Castle Greyhawk.

 

[jimmifett]

I'm perfectly fine with whatever lore they feeling like putting in the MM, it doesn't really matter to me when I drop the monster in my worlds. They (wisely) take a POV that this is the monster's story in POL. I'm glad they do this and give me a potential hook for the monster, versus using up space (not exactly wasted imho) from previous edition by giving you blocks of "this monster in FR" and "this monster in Eberron". Sure, that was nifty and clever, but i'd rather save those aggregate paragraphs for more monsters.

I also have a bunch of books of previous editions (I lost my lighter when ordered to burn them and buy new) and have a ton of back story.

I also take stat blocks and reskin them as completely new monsters to keep players guessing when not making my own. I'm more happy with well designed monsters that are fun to run and fight.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Demons are destruction and chaos incarnate, yes.

But never, in any edition, has that meant that they cannot be patient or methodical about it. Most aren't, sure. Most lack the capacity. But not all.

Since the days of 1st edition, the demon princes have engaged in convoluted, byzantine schemes that take centuries or millennia to play out. (Look, in particular, at Orcus's various plans.) They've created servitors. They've built strongholds.

Entropy can be a gradual process, but it's an inevitable one. I don't see any contradiction in the idea of a few specific demons taking the same approach. Sure, I wouldn't want it to be common, but neither is it impossible.

Plus, the idea of a demon lord of alchemy and tinkering is just damn cool. I haven't read Demonomicon yet, but if the writers aren't planning to expand on said demon lord themselves in the future, I may have to myself...

But if you dislike the idea of a demon sitting around patiently crafting, consider this alternative:

You have a layer of the Abyss full of bits of broken machinery and rusting metal. (It is, after all, just another form of devastation.) The lord of this domain has learned to create servitors purely by commanding/reshaping the realm around him, as many other demon lords do. But because his domain is full of broken machinery, the servitors he creates are machinery--not because he sat down to craft them, but because that was the raw material he had to work with when he animated his surroundings.

Same result, different process.