[4th ed] Clockwork Horrors now DEMONS? And Neogi...

[DarthMouth]

Why everyone thinking craft as a meticulous, patient, task ?

I mean, you can craft with fury and passion, with hate and pleasure. A demon can twist iron apart and craft them as his will, or not ?

I'm not talking about craft and alchemy as a whole, but some part. Why not?

 

[the Jester]

Demon Lord of Daffodils?
Demon Lord of Justice?
Demon Lord of Virtue?

No.

You just need the right spin on it:

Demon Lord of Daffodils... that have poisonous pollen that makes everyone around them turn Chaotic Evil!!!
Demon Lord of Justice... Denied, Miscarriages of Justice, Vengeance!
Demon Lord of Virtue... who spreads false hope to those trapped in his web, leading them to believe there is an island of hope in the darkness of the Abyss before UTTERLY CRUSHING THEM!!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In MM2 4E, the Retriever is listed as having been originally created by the primordials.

Since some demon princes, like Demogorgon, are corrupted Primordials- maybe he created them before his transformation into a demon?

Its tenuous...a Primordial wouldn't have much use for an uncontrollable engine of destruction like a Clockwork Horror.

However, a Primordial who went somewhat mad could have created the Horrors...which led to his transformation.

Workable? Yes. Like it? Not really.

What could be more horrendous than the thing that waits endlessly and patiently planning and plotting ultimate destruction. Evil to the uttermost core, infinitely more patient than the cunningest spider in its web, relentless, totally cruel, wise with the wisdom of infinite ages, and undying.

That sounds more like lawful evil to me.

Now, I know the Mythos/Far Realms stuff also gets the Chaotic Evil tag, and they are described as patient and plotting.

But to me, what some describe as their patience isn't truly patience. Its uncaring. We and our reality don't matter to them. They'll get to us when/if they want to, then they will strike. And if/when they do, we'll be like a hill of ants going "WTF?" when some kids try out their new magnifying glass on a hot sunny day.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why everyone thinking craft as a meticulous, patient, task ?

I mean, you can craft with fury and passion, with hate and pleasure. A demon can twist iron apart and craft them as his will, or not ?

I'm not talking about craft and alchemy as a whole, but some part. Why not?

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I craft. I'm active in paint, pencil, ink, pastels, modern sculptural techniques and music.

All of which can be done explosively and with passion and fire.

Assembling something with a bunch of tiny gears, bearings, screws, welds and so forth, OTOH, takes time and patience.

Look at the aforementioned American Chopper- those guys are quite passionate...but when it gets time to fire up the welding torch, or paint a gas tank, patience is the underlying virtue that makes their designs come to life.

 

[Scribble]

Its tenuous...a Primordial wouldn't have much use for an uncontrollable engine of destruction like a Clockwork Horror.

However, a Primordial who went somewhat mad could have created the Horrors...which led to his transformation.

Workable? Yes. Like it? Not really.

They were corrupted by the same shard that created the abyss- and I believe there are also corrupted angels?

So he could have been a whatever of alchemy and such and then blamo shard corruption now he takes all the creations he so lovingly and patiently created and turns them to complete and utter destructive purposes.


I still think there's something to be said though about a creature of chaos using something so sophisticated to sow discord. Like a rich guy chugging limited reserve bottles of wine just to get smashed.

Someone who loves wine, but couldn't manage to get any of those reserve bottles is going to be horrified, and saddened watching this guy just ignore everything the winelover would enjoy about the wine in order to get the same effect he could have gotten from a $5.00 jug of sutter home...

I think a lot of people are also basing how much patience and hard work and concentration it would take a demon to do something on how much it takes humans.

Which is... weird. They're supernatural creatures. They just do stuff.

Which is even ore to the point...

Master Craftsman: "I have worked for years toiling over the intricate gears and clockwork motors of my automoton... Marvel over the beauty of the device..."

Demon: "Hey I can make that... " Snap.. "Ooooh lets make it smash stuff!!!"

 

[Nifft]

Demon Lord of Daffodils?

He sells ingredients to the Sinmaker. He corrupts Dryads. He invented the Yellow Musk Creeper (but that was a failure, the yellow musk flower isn't a daffodil at all... so expect him to have an upgraded version any century now.)

Demon Lord of Justice?

Kas takes over a layer. Done.

Demon Lord of Virtue?

"Strength is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible. Worship Baphomet, and you shall gain the strength you need to stand up for yourself, and for all other virtues. (Terms and conditions may apply.)"

No.

Fortunately, the game isn't as limited as you seem to imagine.

Cheers, -- N

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That sounds more like lawful evil to me.

Now, I know the Mythos/Far Realms stuff also gets the Chaotic Evil tag, and they are described as patient and plotting.

But to me, what some describe as their patience isn't truly patience. Its uncaring. We and our reality don't matter to them. They'll get to us when/if they want to, then they will strike. And if/when they do, we'll be like a hill of ants going "WTF?" when some kids try out their new magnifying glass on a hot sunny day.

"Lawful Evil" IMHO is a total oxymoron, but lets not derail the thread into THAT debate.

Far Realms stuff IMHO isn't really relateable to any alignment. They are perhaps chaotic evil in the sense that they have no awareness or concern for us or our systems of moral thought. In their own terms we simply don't figure in whatever their concerns are except incidentally.

The demons are OTOH a very humanistic sort of evil. Devils corrupt and tempt, they want your soul, they want something FROM you. Demons just want to destroy you and everything else. Beyond that they can be as cunning and patient as necessary in my book.

A devil might create a type of construct that it could use to entrap people. Demons would construct a race of unstoppable constructs that destroy everything. It may not be their most typical behavior but the Abyss is endlessly creative in its means, if not its ends.

At any rate I guess we can say that some of us would be happy to use the CH backstory and mechanics and find it in keeping with our concepts of the Abyss. Fluff should provide for various different ways to spin things. I could definitely see using that particular fluff in the right setting.

 

[Barastrondo]

Goetic origins aside, I have to confess that a concept of "demons" that doesn't allow for demon lords of alchemy feels a touch limited for my tastes. If you take artifice away as "not very demonic," then demons with swords and whips and daggers and axes and hammers and three-headed flails all start looking suspiciously out of character. I don't particularly want all my demons to be using claws and rocks because nobody in the Abyss can stand at an anvil for very long without flipping out and burning the forge down, and I'm not wild about the idea that the Abyss imports craftsmen and weapons en masse, either. ("Tuesday is Marilith night: buy 5 cruelly curved swords, get the sixth free!") There's something really interesting about demonically forged items, and I think it loses something if demons aren't the ones crafting them.

Part of the problem may be that the philosophical rationale for demons as "pure embodiments of destructive chaos" clashes with the inspiration for the appearance and role of demons, which seems to be derived from classic demonology (in which demons aren't very differentiated from "devils") and a heaping helping of fantasy fiction (Moorcock's a particular influence). If you like the philosophy, the visual inspiration starts being jarring, and if you like the inspiration, the philosophy's kind of imperfect. I tend to favor the inspiration and then devise my own philosophy, so guys like Haagenti are a nice start for me.

 

[Klaus]

He sells ingredients to the Sinmaker. He corrupts Dryads. He invented the Yellow Musk Creeper (but that was a failure, the yellow musk flower isn't a daffodil at all... so expect him to have an upgraded version any century now.)

Kas takes over a layer. Done.

"Strength is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible. Worship Baphomet, and you shall gain the strength you need to stand up for yourself, and for all other virtues. (Terms and conditions may apply.)"

Fortunately, the game isn't as limited as you seem to imagine.

Cheers, -- N

And let's not forget: daffodils are also called narcissus, after the mythological figure that starved itself to death by being enamored with his own reflection.

"Narcissus, Demon Lord of Daffodils, say: love unto death!"

 

[Gradine]

Demon Lord of Daffodils?
Demon Lord of Justice?
Demon Lord of Virtue?

No.

Demon Lord of Adorable Puppies?