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4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Sorry, but, no, I don't believe that rogues are useless. But, we're talking about protagonism. To me, this is the idea that the character is the protagonist in the game. If the character is rendered mostly useless by the mechanics, it's been deprotagonized. And, most of the things which are immune to sneak attacks, are also pretty much immune to the other part of the rogue's schtick, which is social skills.

It depends upon how often this neutralization occurs.

To me, a character who overcomes his weaknesses is much more interesting than one who has almost none. Look at some of DC Comics' longest-running characters:

1) Wonder Woman loses her powers if bound- this happened at least a few times per 12 issues.

2) the Green Lanterns cannot affect the color yellow. They usually find a way around it, but it pops up often.

3) Superman originally had a weakness to kryptonite only, but as he became more powerful, his godlike nature turned people off, and weaknesses got added- Quardian energy, magic, etc. (And Superman-like characters since the 1980s have had similarly debilitating flaws...)

Rogues live by their wits. If your rogue is in a campaign features a lot of critters that are immune to SA, then he should use those wits to prepare for that eventuality- UMD, alternative weapons, whatever. If he doesn't, there's a disconnect.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I recently started a campaign of Star Wars d6, and I think it's a classic example of a high-concept sim game. In this game, the thematic choices, theme, morals, and the rest don't come from the GM but instead the source material - for us, this is the version of "A New Hope" where Han shot first. As GM, I am running the game using "pemertonian scene-framing", aimed at giving the players the opportunity to act like Star Wars characters. (What was life like for Han and Chewie before A New Hope?)

I have a tendency to drift Star Wars towards vanilla narrativism over time, though - once the characters are developed and we've had our fill of the source material, the players answer the moral questions Star Wars asks in their own way. e.g. Is forgiveness a virtue? Answer: No, sometimes revenge is the moral response. This requires a tweak to the Character Point/Force Point/Dark Side Point rules, though.
Interesting post - when I said "GM or system" I should have added, I guess, "or source material as mediated through system and social contract".

Interesting also that you have to tweak the "alignment" rules to do your narrativist drift - that doesn't surprise me at all. And I've had simlar experiences in play - not of drifting a formal mechanic, but of drifting table practices: at the start of the campaign, when people are still finding their feet with their PCs and with the gameworld, the players look to me as GM for guidance on moral questions that confront their PCs; but as the game progresses, and everyone's sense of what it's about becomes firmer, the players (sometimes quite forcefully) take the reins!

In the old days, sometime back in the early 80's, I ran CoC a bunch and it seemed from the standards of the time that it was a nice solid design. The skill-based mechanics, low durability of the PCs, and general simulationist bent of the system (outside the Mythos stuff) seemed the "obvious" design decisions.

Now, after playing any number of more modern BW/PACE/etc RP-focused Drama/plot driven games going back to CoC's BRP skill-based simulationist system was so painful we just gave up.

<snip>

While I have fond memories of CoC I realize now that even in the day I was sort of aware of these issues, I just lacked enough conceptual framework to articulate them and had no idea how to devise a system that would overcome them (not being a game design genius in terms of pioneering anything new). Now that cleverer people have given me the tools I've realized a very nice little Mythos game. I get the impression that Gumshoe-based Trail of Cthulhu does something a bit similar.
Very interesting! I've never GMed CoC, and it's quite a while now since I've played it. I wonder if I'd have the same experience.

As for say "You just get the Paragon Path at level 11" this is a literally true mechanical statement, and may well reflect play in many cases (LFR for instance). OTOH it is equally easy to see it as just the mechanical side of the instructions (IE, here's how you indicate on your character sheet that you have PP X and here's the mechanics for using it in combat). That says NOTHING about the STORY. HOW and WHY you got that PP and what the requirements or flaming hoops might be that are involved is not up to a set of game rules to invent. In fact every PP has a pretty hefty chunk of 'fluff' with it that fairly well describes how it might come to pass.
I agree with all this. I don't think the story loading of PPs is irrelevant - I think it's hugely important. What I was trying to convey, though, is that the player doesn't have to "earn" it.

So in my game, the player of the drow sorcerer wanted to take Demonskin Adept as his PP, and so from about 8th level, whenever the PCs defeated demons, he would describe his PC cutting up bits of their skins and gradually sewing together his demonskin cloak. And I introduce an element into the game - sigils of chaos that appeared, tatooed, on the insides of his eyelids after a dream about the Queen of Chaos - in anticipation of his 16th level feature, which involves blinding both himself and his enemy on a crit.

But I think both player and GM incorporating these sorts of story aspects is very different from the "questing" model in AD&D or BECMI, where finding your warhorse, or achieving your immortality, actually has to be played out as a part of the game with a real chance of mechanical failure for the player, and hence ingame failure for the PC.
 

pemerton

Legend
Default motivations for characters are based on their personality and background and most of those aren't governed by rules, nor should they be since the rules are simply a framework for operationalizing what the characters (PC and NPC) want to do based on their own internal logic.
When you say "nor should they", I assume you mean something like "nor should they if they are going to yield a game that I prefer".

Because there is no objective RPG-design reason why rules should be as you characterise them ("a framework for operationalising what the character want to do based on their own internal logic"). For instance, in 4e a STR paladin can have an at-will attack called Valiant Smite. This grants a +1 to hit per adjacent enemy. And it is not simply an operationalisation of what the PC wants to do based on the PC's own internal logic: it is a metagame ability which ensures that the paladin who has it will be valiant, smiting his/her foes when they surround him/her. Inspiring Word, a Warlord power that allows an ally to spend a healing surge and thereby recover hit points, is another metagame power in 4e. And it does not simply operationalise what the warlord PC wants to do based on their own internal logic. It also allows the player of the recipient of the power to narrate his/her PC's inspired recovery from shock and pain, and resurgence into the fray!

Plenty of other RPGs also have mechancis that do more than simply operationalise what the characters want to do based on their own internal logic. For instance, in The Riddle of Steel or HeroWars/Quest, a character's attacks will be mechanically more potent if the target of the attack is someone whom s/he is statted up as hating, or if the attack is made in the course of defending someone whom s/he is statted up as loving. 4e doesn't have these sorts of emtional mechanics, but it has stuff in the neighbourhood - radiant attacks, for instance, make divine PCs more capable when confronting the undead, those violators of the gods' ordained order.

Dark Sun and Dragonlance Saga were segments within the larger identity of D&D but neither was the flagship of the core identity.

<snip>

Dark Sun is more of an example of how D&D's tropes can be reworked to fit an idiosyncratic setting idea.
Dark Sun doesn't seem that idiosyncratic to me: it's seems a pretty standard sword and sorcery setting. Bizarre desert cities with mad wizard tyrants and oppressed slaves are hardly out of the ordinary for pulp tropes.

Its peculiar use of the D&D demihumans is a bit more distinctive, but that distinctiveness only arises because so much D&D material has been quite conservative in its handling of them.

Dragonlance strikes me as even more stock-standard: gruff dwarves, graceful elves, valiant knights riding metallic dragons, the whole works!

The best 4e game we played involved a genasi swordmage, a deva invoker, a warforged warlord, a dragonborn sorcerer, and a human starlock facing a shadar-kai invasion. Hardly the Tolkien-esque fantasy of the Redbox.
But the Red Box isn't Tolkien-esque at all, except in the flavour of its demihumans.

D&D orcs aren't Tolkien-esque. Tolkien has no distinct goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, regenerating trolls, thouls, etc. Tolkien's wizards don't cast fireball at all, and a fortiori don't wipe out rooms of goblins using magic - Gandalf (if a magic-user at all, rather than a cleric) uses a sword; and Elrond is both an elf and a master healer (though, in Red Box terms, presumably not a cleric).

And the Red Box has basically no material to support a Tolkien-esque play experience - I'm not saying it would be impossible to play a fantasy romance using the Red Box, but I reckon it would be pretty hard.

I often feel that was WotC's point. They didn't want to look, feel, or play like older D&D. They wanted a new beast with a familiar name. In the end, most of the "legacy" elements felt forced, far different from its origin except in the most general sense. They thought they could build a newer, sleeker game that would appeal to card-gamers, wargamers, RPG-players video-gamers and MMO-players that just happened to have the pedigree of the Worlds Oldest RPG tacked on.
The way you phrase this tends to imply that you are pointing to some desires of WotC, and some features of 4e - whereas I think you are really only conveying a biographical fact about yourself.

After all, for me (and, by his own testimony, for [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]) 4e captures the look, feel and (desired) play of D&D better than previous rulesets. Here is the sort of RP experience that Moldvay Basic - my first encounter with D&D - promised:

I was busy rescuing the captured maiden when the dragon showed up. Fifty feet of scaled terror glared down at us with smoldering red eyes. Tendrils of smoke drifted out from between fangs larger than daggers. The dragon blocked the only exit from the cave. . .

I unwrapped the sword which the mysterious cleric had given me. The sword was golden-tinted steel. Its hilt was set with a rainbow collection of precious gems. I shouted my battle cry and charged.

My charge caught the dragon by surprise. Its titanic jaws snapped shut inches from my face. I swung the golden sword with both arms. The swordblade bit into the dragon's neck and continued through to the other side. With an earth-shaking crash, the dragon dropped dead at my feet. The magic sword had saved my life and ended the reign of the dragon-tyrant. The countryside was freed and I could return a hero.​

My play and GMing of D&D has been, to a significant an extent, an attempt to find a mechanical way to make this sort of action - which is quite different from dungeon crawling and looting, and much closer to the Tolkien-esque - the centre of my play.

I've used AD&D (especially Oriental Adventures). I've used Rolemaster. And now I use 4e. For me, the story elements haven't changed in any fundamental way - the single most prominent source of story material for my Rolemaster play was AD&D modules, for instance. But the mechanics have. They've done a better job of delivering my desired play experience.
 

Hussar

Legend
It depends upon how often this neutralization occurs.

To me, a character who overcomes his weaknesses is much more interesting than one who has almost none. Look at some of DC Comics' longest-running characters:

1) Wonder Woman loses her powers if bound- this happened at least a few times per 12 issues.

2) the Green Lanterns cannot affect the color yellow. They usually find a way around it, but it pops up often.

3) Superman originally had a weakness to kryptonite only, but as he became more powerful, his godlike nature turned people off, and weaknesses got added- Quardian energy, magic, etc. (And Superman-like characters since the 1980s have had similarly debilitating flaws...)

Rogues live by their wits. If your rogue is in a campaign features a lot of critters that are immune to SA, then he should use those wits to prepare for that eventuality- UMD, alternative weapons, whatever. If he doesn't, there's a disconnect.

Oh, totally agree. I have no problem with neutralizing a character once in a while. That's fine. Golems vs wizards is fine, as an example. It's a single encounter, or maybe a couple. And, really, Golems are still pretty tough vs other classes as well - damage reduction and whatnot.

My beef specifically is when you have large swaths of the game that are pretty much tailored to neutralizing a specific class. How many types of monster are immune to sneak attack? Four? Five? And pretty common monsters as well - elementals and undead are hardly rare encounters. I'd say probably more used than golems usually.

And, let's not forget your second point. The characters get around their limitations. They have some way to still do stuff.

What, exactly, is my rogue going to do to a shambling mound or a mummy? How can he get around these limitations? Mentioned was holy water - a pretty minor work around and generally only effective against one of the several types of monsters. Use Magic Device. I'm not sure, but adding MORE magic to the game is perhaps not a great solution to the problem.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Hey, if it's fun for you, great.
I ran a campaign with heavy, heavy undead involvement. One PC was a Sun domain cleric who optimized for healing and turning (the player did this without knowing that he was in the perfect campaign for it). Another played a multiclass rogue/warlock. Did player #1 experience greater mechanical success with his character than player #2? Somewhat. The cleric routinely owned undead and was a great healer in any other case. And his character was a minor lord who owned a keep and ruled over a small area, while the other characters had no equivalent standing. The rogue/warlock was a terrible rogue and a mediocre warlock, and scraped by. His character was even captured and tortured by undead once; he wasn't effective against them at all.

And yet, both players remember it as a great experience and count it as one of my better efforts. Both got involved in the noncombat aspects of the game, and the rogue was just tank-ish enough to make the party work in combat. Even though the optimized "tier 1" character with a campaign built for him clearly owned, people had fun anyway.

Which I attribute to one of two things:
1. I as a DM took steps to make it work.
2. Mechanical effectiveness isn't everything.

I got what I expected out of my ruleset.

(To be fair, I later rewrote the rogue, using Trailblazer principles to give it some partial effectiveness against crit-immune creatures. I don't disagree that sneak attack needs a rewrite.)
 

Hussar

Legend
Ahn said:
Even though the optimized "tier 1" character with a campaign built for him clearly owned, people had fun anyway.

See, this is part of the issue. Sure, if your table is happy with the results, great. Now, what about my table which is not happy with this result? What about my table where the rogue player is flipping through his cell phone because he's bored out of his mind and the cleric player is feeling guilty because he knows that he's the Angel Summoner to the BMX Bandit?

Should I receive no help from the mechanics?
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
See, this is part of the issue. Sure, if your table is happy with the results, great. Now, what about my table which is not happy with this result? What about my table where the rogue player is flipping through his cell phone because he's bored out of his mind and the cleric player is feeling guilty because he knows that he's the Angel Summoner to the BMX Bandit?

Should I receive no help from the mechanics?
Those are first and foremost things for individual DMs to address. If a lot of DMs have the same issue and want to fix it the same way, then maybe it becomes a system issue. So I wouldn't say no help at all, but I certainly wouldn't expect a wholesale rewrite of rules to address those types of issues.

To justify rewriting the rules, I think deeper issues than that would have to be addressed.
 

Hussar

Legend
But, you rewrote the rules yourself. You agree that the sneak attack rules needed some work. Why leave things up to individual DM's? "Just let them work it out" means that there are a lot of pretty crappy experiences out there.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
See, this is part of the issue. Sure, if your table is happy with the results, great. Now, what about my table which is not happy with this result? What about my table where the rogue player is flipping through his cell phone because he's bored out of his mind and the cleric player is feeling guilty because he knows that he's the Angel Summoner to the BMX Bandit?

Should I receive no help from the mechanics?

By that measure, shouldn't I receive help from the mechanics to play the style I want to play. Now suppose those are in conflict? What is any game designer to do? Fix our respective problems for us when fixing it for you means breaking it for me?
I think Wizards is at least trying to get on the right track by modularizing or at least considering it. But part of the solution really has to come from us too. If the game isn't a perfect fit but we still insist on playing it (part of the story of D&D's life as the market leader), we need to provide some of our own help and that includes pushing the rogue to be more engaged even when other PCs have more directly useful abilities for the time-being, assuring the cleric he doesn't have to feel guilty during his turns to shine, and finding ways to balance the times that PCs are down with times they are up.
 

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