4th to 5th Edition Converters - What has been your experience?

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
... Where things would get ambiguous was situations like say where 2 characters are engaged with a troll. Can the troll be said to 'engage' both of them, or is one simply free to move away? Do the 'parting shots' count as the other parties' normal attack routine, or can they make an entire EXTRA set of attacks on top of "from the back as if stunned" (which against a fighter with a shield is AT LEAST the equivalent of getting +5 to all your attacks, and probably more). Would parting shots be 'split' (IE if 2 guys retreat from a troll does it get C/C/B against BOTH OF THEM, or just 3 attacks split in some way, or does it even get to try to follow both).
I think this is where you'd have to try and logic your way through it. It seemed that the parting blows were considered "freebies" in that it didn't count against the normal attacks/round economy, but maybe that is just how we played it.

Its also not clear in what sense missile fire for instance would 'cover a retreat'. If one character flees or 'disengages' is the opponent not still locked in melee given that it is now in pursuit? Is there any point at which missile fire is possible?
This was maybe just something we allowed as part of the 'rulings instead of rules' before it was cool. Does that make us AD&Ders the hipsters of the brand? I'm not sure, haha.

There are HUGE GAPS, and in any case the application of all this logic to the initial situation of opponents approaching and a fighter trying to keep them pinned down is ALL extrapolation! A perfectly reasonable reading of the rules would have it that you can only engage people that you end up within 10' of. Remember, movement and attacks are simultaneous (or near-simultaneous) in AD&D combat. Both sides plot their moves ahead, reveal them, initiative is checked, and the results are worked out, with the higher initiative party striking blows first (mostly, sort of, depending on which optional rules you use). 'Common sense' indicates that 2 opponents won't 'pass through' one another if they moved in from opposite directions, but AD&D doesn't even contain a rule, not even a suggestion, as to exactly where such opponents would end up, how to resolve just how close they came to each other if they're moving to different places at different rates from various directions, just how much faster you'd have to be than someone else to 'run around them' (assuming space exists, and how much would you need).
Yes, there was a great deal of wiggle room and inconsistency back in those days. Back then, unless we were having an epic battle, we exclusively used TotM and this occasionally led to some table arguments about peoples' differing perceptions of just what was *actually* happening. That's when the graph paper would come out.

Again, even the 15' wide bridge held by 3 PCs isn't a clear case in AD&D where you can prevent the enemy from going past, and its entirely unclear how many of them you can stop or 'OA' on their way by. ENTIRELY unclear, not just "it depends a little bit on how you rules lawyer this" its UTTERLY unclear and completely up to the DM, who can very reasonably make any of several different rulings. REALLY, go run AD&D at a Con and see what happens, this stuff comes up all the time and it can only be resolved by the ancient "DM is always right" of 'rule zero'.
This is certainly part of why I had so many bad experiences playing in other peoples' games during the AD&D era; the style of game makes heavy reliance on DM judgement calls, and if you have an Emperor or Viking-hat DM, sorry about your luck, but the fun of game will largely be in spite of them, certainly not because of them. Despite what it says in the books about "rules-lawyering" being a Bad Thing, sometimes the only way to ensure the rules were being applied fairly was to become a rules lawyer.

Needless to say, I have had plenty of those DMs in my time, and the only way I could ensure what I considered a "fair" game, was to run it myself. Thank goodness I crossed paths with my future wife and ended up in her game, or I would have given up on D&D completely!

This is why, at first glance, the steps 3E took to codify everything and remove ambiguity seemed to be, and in many ways was, an improvement. By this time I'd mostly stopped playing with what I'd call Bad DMs, so I can't 100% compare apples to apples, and it also had the unfortunate side effect of making rules mastery the go-to path to Win, on both sides of the screen. That, and playing the DM, rather than the rules.

That's what made 4e such a breath of fresh air for me, even if there are other things I didn't like about it. It's also one of the things that makes me cringe when I hear that 5e is going back to the older style of DM-as-God. I always hated playing the "mother-may-I" game, knowing that I'd more than likely get shot down (such is the way with the Emperors). I mean, that aspect likely won't impact my game much if I ever do play 5e, since my group is fairly stable and we get along well, but I hate to think of all those new players that will be having a bad time of it because of crappy DMing.
 

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In practice, I would expect most GMs to allow the bridge defenders to declare as their action "We hold the bridge and attack anyone who tries to pass" and as long as the people trying to pass come within 10' then they count as having close to striking range and we're now "locked in melee". Per the rules, no attack rolls would be possible at that point and we need to roll initiative to see who gets to attack first. But I suspect that most GMs (probably including me back when I used to run this system!) would allow the defenders to make their declared attacks, which would trigger complaints from the players of the character trying to move around, and thus would another AD&D-rules-dispute-at-the-table be born . . .

Right, 3 PCs in a 15' wide space would probably be ruled as a reasonable frontage, particularly if they don't use daggers or weapons with a very narrow frontage (IE pikes or spears basically). In the later case most DMs probably will just go with it anyway, but some might rule that one or another of the opponents is able to 'slip by' because the "ranks aren't full". How that would be meshed with the 'engaged' rule is unclear. Some DMs might say that the 'engagement clause' is just a general statement that applies to the typical case of an opponent with a sword-length weapon and a single opponent. Others might decide that every single orc is stopped, no matter what, in which case all the statements about frontages and their rules seem pretty much redundant.

Defenders with long weapons might get prepared attacks. Frankly in this kind of situation I'd be tempted to allow everyone to strike in order of weapon length on the first round. Even if the orcs aren't technically charging they still have to get past your spear point, and even an axe is shorter than most spears.

Personally I wasn't all that fond of the generous interpretations of the 'free attack rule'. It seems far too punishing and creates such a huge change in action economy that it effectively precludes any viable flight from combat, whereas the situation probably shouldn't be THAT grim. We always allowed a single immediate free 'primary' attack (IE the troll tries to bite you) followed by the opponent being free to reengage, assuming equal/better movement rate, at which point the rest of its attack routine for the round could be executed. If you really are FAST, well, you can often get away almost scott free! It really makes lighter armor a lot more enticing too, as some degree of hit and run tactics become potentially viable. (IE a lightly armored fighter quickly 'flees', and his missile-armed buddies give the enemy a choice of taking cover or getting a couple of HCB bolts straight in the face). Its still UNFAVORABLE because you don't get your attacks, and the opponent gets at least one blow at substantially improved odds, but if the goal is say attrition then its reasonable and seems fairly realistic at that.
 

I think this is where you'd have to try and logic your way through it. It seemed that the parting blows were considered "freebies" in that it didn't count against the normal attacks/round economy, but maybe that is just how we played it.
I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is correct about them being freebies by 'RAW', there's just a LOT of times when it doesn't seem like it SHOULD be that way.

This was maybe just something we allowed as part of the 'rulings instead of rules' before it was cool. Does that make us AD&Ders the hipsters of the brand? I'm not sure, haha.
Oh, MM stole that right out of Gary Gygax's mouth basically.

Yes, there was a great deal of wiggle room and inconsistency back in those days. Back then, unless we were having an epic battle, we exclusively used TotM and this occasionally led to some table arguments about peoples' differing perceptions of just what was *actually* happening. That's when the graph paper would come out.

This is certainly part of why I had so many bad experiences playing in other peoples' games during the AD&D era; the style of game makes heavy reliance on DM judgement calls, and if you have an Emperor or Viking-hat DM, sorry about your luck, but the fun of game will largely be in spite of them, certainly not because of them. Despite what it says in the books about "rules-lawyering" being a Bad Thing, sometimes the only way to ensure the rules were being applied fairly was to become a rules lawyer.

Needless to say, I have had plenty of those DMs in my time, and the only way I could ensure what I considered a "fair" game, was to run it myself. Thank goodness I crossed paths with my future wife and ended up in her game, or I would have given up on D&D completely!

This is why, at first glance, the steps 3E took to codify everything and remove ambiguity seemed to be, and in many ways was, an improvement. By this time I'd mostly stopped playing with what I'd call Bad DMs, so I can't 100% compare apples to apples, and it also had the unfortunate side effect of making rules mastery the go-to path to Win, on both sides of the screen. That, and playing the DM, rather than the rules.

That's what made 4e such a breath of fresh air for me, even if there are other things I didn't like about it. It's also one of the things that makes me cringe when I hear that 5e is going back to the older style of DM-as-God. I always hated playing the "mother-may-I" game, knowing that I'd more than likely get shot down (such is the way with the Emperors). I mean, that aspect likely won't impact my game much if I ever do play 5e, since my group is fairly stable and we get along well, but I hate to think of all those new players that will be having a bad time of it because of crappy DMing.

I think most DMs were OK about it, though you could still run into reasonable people will differ kinds of situations. My group is like yours, and we've played a decent amount of 5e now. Its OK, if you can play 2e and get by then you can play 5e and get by, and its probably a bit less fuzzy at that. Certainly the basics of combat are mostly spelled out, though the 'ToTM mode' of where exactly you are, etc means that now how many guys you can block isn't even about ANY rules lawyering, its purely about what the DM decides. He's just got somewhat clearer guidelines.

4e does it for me too. Its very clear what the rules are saying about space, movement, reach, etc. You CAN still allow some narrative wiggle-room, but its against a baseline that is known.
 

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] , I'm sure you know you'll get no disagreement from me that AD&D's sprawling ruleset(s) is(are) extremely incoherent and unwieldy! While the ruleset does well enough in certain areas on functionality and clarity, it could have been organized and explicated a gazillion times better (like DW and 4e!). I'm sure you're not alone with respect folks who played plenty of AD&D and interpreted the nature of close to strike, parry and fall back, and flee differently (and accordingly, their implications on melee stickness)!
 

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] , I'm sure you know you'll get no disagreement from me that AD&D's sprawling ruleset(s) is(are) extremely incoherent and unwieldy! While the ruleset does well enough in certain areas on functionality and clarity, it could have been organized and explicated a gazillion times better (like DW and 4e!). I'm sure you're not alone with respect folks who played plenty of AD&D and interpreted the nature of close to strike, parry and fall back, and flee differently (and accordingly, their implications on melee stickness)!

There are people who played it all different ways, that's for sure. I just find it weird when people make definite statements about how it 'did work' and what 'the rules are' in those editions when its an utter cloud of uncertainty that can have a dozen different interpretations.

Frankly, we played basic DM conventions that monsters sorta didn't really try that hard to run past the fighter because nobody was really sure what the heck was SUPPOSED to happen. If a whole bunch of monsters wanted to go past and it was a relatively open space, then they did, except maybe one or two would stay back and 'keep the fighter occupied'. Was this required by the rules? Was it even possibly less than what the rules demanded? In 20 years of playing AD&D we never really answered those questions, that's how fuzzy the system is.
 

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