5 ft. step with surprise standard action?

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

I like the emphasis game, let me try:

The following is from the 3.5 PHB (quoted from SRD):

"In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action." [emphasis added]

To me, that means, you may be limited to taking a move action OR a standard, but it isn't a hard rule that you definately ARE limited to it.

Excellent work, looks like you are an old pro at the emphasis game!
Seriously, this is why my post above says that this should be adjudicated by individual DMs. For me, I stand by my interpretation, all the while recognizing, however, that you may have a different one.

Are you suggesting you can't speak (free action) during a surprise round?

No, I'm not suggesting that. Free actions explicitly are allowed.

You can't "breathe" (not an action) during a surprise round?

Again, I'm not suggesting that. This is a straw man. "Not an action" means that it is an inherent part of doing something else. So, since you get a standard action or move action, and breathing is part of that, of course you can breathe.

However, the 5' step does not fall under the rubric of "not an action." Rather, it is "no action," like a delay. Delay and 5' step have specific game mechanics associated with them: a delay is done instead of a standard or move action, and a 5' step is done before, during [i.e., between], or after standard or move actions. In contrast, something that is "not an action" is done as part of an action, and includes things like breathing, maintaining physiological blood pressure, and a ton of other things.

OK, I'm now officially a rules lawyer.

 

[RigaMortus]

For me, I stand by my interpretation, all the while recognizing, however, that you may have a different one.

Unfortunately this just won't do. We must continue to argue until either (a) you realize I am right and you are wrong or (b) we take things to a personal level and get into name calling and the post gets closed.

I'll leave the next move up to you...

 

[Camarath]

No, it doesn't. The above quote says you can take free actions, and the 5' step is not a free action.

You stated this:

I interpret that to limit the action in this round to 1 standard action and nothing else, not even a 5' step.

This statement is not true since you can take free actions. It would be true if "nothing else" actually meant "free actions but no other actions of any kind".

a 5' step is done before, during [i.e., between], or after standard or move actions.

During does not mean between. During means "at a point in the course of" thus a 5ft step can happen while you are in the midst of performing another action.

I would also like to state that one sentence under Action Types rules should not be considered the primary rule source for rules on Surprise and 5-Foot Steps. That honor should fall to the Surprise rule section and the Take 5-Foot Step rule section. You will note that the Surprise rules do not use the work "only" on which you argument is based. Also the Take 5-Foot Step rules state "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement.". Thus since a Surprise Round is a "round" the rules on 5ft steps explicitly permit you to take a 5ft step.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

Camarath,

You make some excellent points. I think I can justify my position, and deal with each of your points one at a time. However, I won't do that because I'm afraid you can just as expertly justify your position.

I think we can both agree that the rules as written are not entirely clear on this question. I don't think that they prove or disprove either position, but rather that they are at least *consistent* with both positions.

What I'm saying is that I'm right....but so are you!

If I ever play in your campaign I would not be able to disprove your ruling, but I don't think you could disprove mine either (plus there's always rule zero here, so whichever one of us is the DM wins).

Now, if you want me to rebut your points just for a fun discussion, I'd love to, so long as we both promise not to let it devolve into bickering.

 

[Camarath]

Now, if you want me to rebut your points just for a fun discussion, I'd love to, so long as we both promise not to let it devolve into bickering.

I like a good debate even a pointless one (see this thread for proof) so by all means let us continue.

 

[ForceUser]

I think Vigwyn is arguing a position that is technically true by the letter of the rules but, despite that, makes no sense whatsoever. He's splitting hairs. I allow my players to make a 5-ft. step during the surprise round of combat.

 

[Tatsukun]

In the Core Rules, you can cast a touch spell, then move 30' and use it on an enemy...

-Hyp.

Right, I forgot to say "all as a standard action". My player could for example; stand up from prone, cast the spell, take a 5' step and deliver it all in one normal round.

Clarity is not my friend sometimes.

As for the ‘debate’ at hand. It’s clear that you can take a 5’ step. The book says . . .

Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. …
[I can add emphasis too]

So, let’s see if I can still make a logical argument (remembering high school debate club)

1) One can take a 5’ step in any round in which s/he doesn’t perform any other kind of movement
2) All surprise rounds are rounds

So, one can take a 5’ step in any surprise round in which s/he doesn’t perform any other kind of movement. Seems pretty clear to me, but I realize that you might have to stick to your proverbial guns to keep debating. Good luck!

-Tatsu

 

[Saeviomagy]

Frankly my rule of thumb is:
If my players want to do it, and I can't think of a GOOD reason not to let them, they can do it. Disallowing player actions is in general a bad thing to do, because it lessens enjoyment. Usually that minor decrease is exceeded by the benefits of disallowing actions (ie - the increase in verisimilitude is worth telling players that they can't leap 30' without some sort of special ability)

Disallowing 5' steps during the surprise round seems to be one of those things that will realistically have zero positive effects on the enjoyment level of the game. Therefore it ends up with a net negative adjustment, and won't be done by me any time soon.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

I think Vigwyn is arguing a position that is technically true by the letter of the rules but, despite that, makes no sense whatsoever. He's splitting hairs.

How does it make no sense? Seriously...it seems perfectly sensible to me.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

This statement is not true since you can take free actions. It would be true if "nothing else" actually meant "free actions but no other actions of any kind".

Admittedly it is poorly written, but the basic idea is true. A free action can be taken "while taking another action" (quote from SRD). A 5' step, on the other hand, is taken before, during [as in between], or after standard or move actions. So, it can't be done if the only thing you can do is take a standard or move action.

During does not mean between. During means "at a point in the course of" thus a 5ft step can happen while you are in the midst of performing another action.

I think this is the weakest part of my argument, but I still think I'm right.
By "during," I think the authors meant "between" and I'll tell you why. First, note that in both examples they give (PHB 144), the 5' actually takes place between, not in the course of, the actions. Second, the book says you can take a 5' step during actions (plural), not during an action (singular). This is more consistent with a "between" meaning for "during."

I would also like to state that one sentence under Action Types rules should not be considered the primary rule source for rules on Surprise and 5-Foot Steps. That honor should fall to the Surprise rule section and the Take 5-Foot Step rule section.

That's fine, it may not be in the primary spot, but it is still a rule. Since nothing in the primary sections directly contradicts what is in the Action Types rules, we can't just throw out that sentence. It's perfectly consistent with the other sections.

You will note that the Surprise rules do not use the work "only" on which you argument is based.

Again, this argument doesn't work. They also don't mention move actions, and I don't think you would suggest that you can only take standard actions just because that's all that's mentioned in the Surprise Round section.

Also the Take 5-Foot Step rules state "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement.". Thus since a Surprise Round is a "round" the rules on 5ft steps explicitly permit you to take a 5ft step.

OK, I can make two different arguments against this.

First, a "surprise round" is not a "round." That might seem funny, but remember that an "incorporeal touch attack" is not a "touch attack."

Second, if you don't buy that argument (and I'm not even sure that I do ), I challenge the use of the word "any" in this context. This is not the only place in the PHB where the authors say "any" but clearly don't mean it. For example, the SRD says "With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet." This is clearly not true, because you cannot strike an incorporeal creature with a normal melee weapon, even when it is within 5 feet.